Deposition of Gerald Armstrong
FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES
RELIGIOUS TECHNOLOGY CENTER, Plaintiffs, vs.
JOSEPH A. YANNY, an individual, and Defendants. |
) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) |
No. BC 033035 |
VOLUME 2
DEPOSITION OF
GERALD ARMSTRONG
SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA
February 6, 1992
ATKINSON-BAKER AND ASSOCIATES, INC.
CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
1612 West Olive Avenue, Suite 203
Burbank, California 91506
(818) 566-8840
REPORTED BY: SHEENAGH M. CARLSON, CSR NO. 8350
FILE NO.: 92-01132
232
FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES
RELIGIOUS TECHNOLOGY CENTER, Plaintiffs, vs. Defendants. |
) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) |
No. BC 033035 |
Deposition of Gerald Armstrong, taken on behalf of the Plaintiffs, at 601 California Street, Suite 1900, San Francisco, California, commencing at 10:00 a.m., Thursday, February 6, 1992, before Sheenagh M. Carlson, CSR #8350.
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FOR THE PLAINTIFF FOR THE DEFENDANT: FOR THE WITNESS: Also Present: Laurie J. Bartilson, Esq. Matt Ward, Paralegal |
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I N D E X
WITNESS: GERALD ARMSTRONG
EXAMINATION BY MR. MOXON |
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EXHIBITS:
NUMBER |
PLAINTIFFS' (None marked) |
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| INFORMATION TO BE SUPPLIED: | (None) |
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GERALD ARMSTRONG, having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: EXAMINATION BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Mr. Armstrong, at your last deposition there were a number of questions that you declined to answer. You recognize a Motion to Compel was made and agreed to by Judge Cardenas requiring you to answer those questions as set forth in the statement of questions?
A. Okay.
Q. The answers is yes, you recognize that?
A. Something to that effect.
Q. You indicated at your last deposition that your church or your religion didn't have any name. Is that still the case?
A. Correct.
Q. And is there anything that you call it?
A. The Church.
Q. Are there any ministers of that church?
A. Yes.
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Q. Who are they?
A. I decline to answer that.
MR. GREENE: I'll interpose an objection there based on the right of privacy, personal and associational, under the First Amendment.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Are you a minister of the church?
MR. GREENE: Objection, asked and answered.
During the course of his prior deposition he indicated that he was.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Are you a minister of the church?
MR. GREENE: I instruct you not to answer.
It's been asked and answered.
MR. MOXON: You're mistaken, Mr. Greene.
Show me.
MR. GREENE: I don't have to show you.
MR. MOXON: That's because it's not there. Mr. Greene, there was, as I mentioned to the witness at the outset of the Motion to Compel, which was granted and the witness did not say he was a minister, he said he was a shaman or something like that.
MR. GREENE: That's fine.
BY MR. MOXON:
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Q. Are you a minister of the church?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you been a minister of the church?
A. Since 1986.
Q. Now, at your last deposition you said you weren't a minister. Was that -- do you want to correct that prior testimony or --
A. I'd like to correct your prior testimony, yes.
Q. Okay. So you claim now you were a minister since '86?
A. You would have to show me where I ever said that.
Q. The bottom line is that you claim now that you were in fact someone called a minister of your church since 1986; is that right?
A. I do not use the term minister.
Q. Okay. So you're not a minister and you never were?
MR. GREENE: Objection vague and ambiguous.
What is a minister?
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. You never called yourself a minister, is that correct, of your church?
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A. No, I have called myself a minister.
Q. In what fashion did you call yourself a minister?
A. In answer to your question just a moment ago am I a minister, yes I'm a minister.
Q. Is that the first time you ever called yourself a minister of the church?
A. It may be the first time I ever used that word. I understand the word, I perform that function.
Q. Well, what's your function?
MR. GREENE: Objection, vague and ambiguous.
MR. MOXON: It's the witnesses term, Mr. Greene, function.
MR. GREENE: Do you mean what is his function as a minister or what is his function generically?
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. What is your function in your church?
A. Forgiveness.
Q. Forgiveness is not a function.
MR. GREENE: Objection as badgering the witness.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Is that the sole and complete answer?
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That's the only thing that you would consider to be your function in your church?
A. Yes.
MR. GREENE: Objection, compound.
MR. MOXON: Let me finish the question, okay Mr. Greene? Then you can make any objections you like. We'll do it that way.
Q. You assert that the sole function you have in your church is, quote, forgiveness, end quote?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you perform that function?
MR. GREENE: Objection, irrelevant, not likely to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence.
MR. BERRY: Join.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. The technical answer is that through the recognition to that which needs to be forgiven never happened.
Q. Is that just something that you do in your own mind or do you communicate that to someone who's being forgiven?
MR. GREENE: Objection, First Amendment,
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religious liberty.
THE WITNESS: You would have to understand. You would have to define for me what you mean by "your own mind" and what you mean by someone else.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Your own mind is something that you think. Someone else is someone other than yourself.
A. Those are definitions which are inaccurate and I do not agree with them, so therefore you're question is meaningless.
Q. Why don't you explain it to me, then, how you perform the forgiveness function?
A. I have just told you.
MR. GREENE: I want to object also on the basis of privacy.
MR. BERRY: And relevancy.
MR. GREENE: And relevancy.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. As I understand your answer, you recognize your forgiveness function is performed by a recognition by someone that the act for which you're giving forgiveness never actually happened, is that an accurate representation of --
A. Pretty good.
Q. -- how it works? And who makes that
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recognition, yourself?
MR. GREENE: Objection. That's been asked and answered.
MR. BERRY: Relevancy.
MR. GREENE: Additionally, relevancy.
THE WITNESS: When I'm called upon to do that, I do it.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Has anyone ever called upon you to do that?
A. Yes.
Q. Who?
MR. GREENE: Objection, instruct the witness not to answer. Invasion of privacy, invasion of First Amendment, religious liberty, invasion of priest-penitent privilege.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
MR. GREENE: Don't answer.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
MR. GREENE: Additionally, it's entirely irrelevant to these proceedings. Not calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence.
MR. MOXON: Well, there is no such person,
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Mr. Greene. This whole thing is a sham, so I'd like to find out if there is any other person --
THE WITNESS: I'm taking a break. You sort it out with that creep across the table.
(Witness leaves the deposition room.)
MR. MOXON: I guess we're on break.
MR. GREENE: Off the record.
(Short discussion was held off the record.)
MR. MOXON: Would you read back the pending question?
MR. GREENE: There is an instruction to it.
There's no point. Mr. Armstrong is not going to go in and start disclosing the members of his church and substance of conversations which he has had with individuals in that church.
MR. MOXON: I didn't ask for the substance of any conversation.
Q. Why do you refuse to answer that question, Mr. Armstrong?
A. What was it?
MR. BERRY: I think he's been instructed not to answer it.
MR. MOXON: I'll re-ask it.
Q. To whom did you allegedly give forgiveness as a minister?
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A. That's wasn't the question.
MR. MOXON: All right, let's go read it back then.
(Whereupon, the record was read.)
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Who was called upon to give forgiveness?
MR. GREENE: Instruct him not to answer based on the reasons previously stated.
MR. MOXON: I just need an answer for the record.
Q. Answer or say if you refuse to answer, one or the other, Mr. Armstrong.
MR. BERRY: He could follow the advice of counsel.
MR. MOXON: He could. I don't know if he is going to or not.
Q. Can I have an answer please?
A. No.
Q. You refuse to answer?
A. Right.
Q. Is Bent Corydon a member of your church?
MR. GREENE: Same objection. First Amendment, religious liberty, associational,
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privacy.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
MS. BARTILSON: That one was directly one of the questions that was ordered by Judge Cardenas for Mr. Armstrong to answer in our Motion to Compel.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall Judge Cardenas say anything about Bent Corydon.
MS. BARTILSON: It's all in the motion.
MR. MOXON : Let's confer.
MR. GREENE: Yes, he did. Same objection but you can answer the question.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. MOXON
Q. When did Bent Corydon become a member of your church?
MR. GREENE: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: I'm not going to answer that.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. How did Bent Corydon become a member of your church?
MR. GREENE: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: I'm not going to answer that.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Did he ask to be a member?
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MR. GREENE: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: I'm not going to answer.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Does he know he was a member?
MR. GREENE: Calls for speculation.
MR. BERRY: Join.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. (No audible response.)
MR. MOXON: For the record, I've been waiting for over a minute for an answer to the question.
THE WITNESS: And I'm trying to figure out what you want to know.
Q. Does Bent Corydon know whether or not he's a member of your church?
MR. GREENE: Objection, calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. How do you know he knows?
A. Without waiving any priest-penitent privilege between us because of communications I have had with Bent Corydon.
Q. When did you have such
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communications?
A. I won't answer that.
MR. GREENE: Objection, First Amendment, religious liberty, privacy, priest penitent.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Are you claiming a priest penitent relationship with Bent Corydon?
MR. GREENE: Objection, calls for legal conclusion.
MR. MOXON: You made the objection, Mr. Greene.
MR. GREENE: Fine.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Are you claiming a priest penitent relationship with Bent Corydon, Mr. Armstrong?
MR. GREENE: Same objection.
MR. BERRY: Join.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Who's the priest?
MR. GREENE: Objection to the extent that it calls for a legal conclusion. You can answer the question.
THE WITNESS: We both are.
BY MR. MOXON:
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Q. Who's the penitent?
A. We both are.
MR. GREENE: Same objection.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Are you a member of Corydon's church?
MR. GREENE: Objection, no foundation.
MR. BERRY: Relevancy.
MR. GREENE: Join.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. When did Corydon become a member of your church?
MR. GREENE: Asked and answered.
MS. BARTILSON: Asked and answered? Not answered.
MR. BERRY: Relevancy.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
MR. GREENE: Join.
THE WITNESS: I won't answer.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Did you ask Corydon to become a member of your church?
MR. GREENE: Same objections. Actually, at this point that's starting to get into the substance
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of the relationship between Armstrong and Corydon and so that starts to extend beyond what is foundational.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
MR. GREENE: If you don't want to answer the question, don't.
THE WITNESS: I won't answer.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Was it before your last deposition --
MR. GREENE: Same objection.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. -- in this case?
A. I've told you that I will not answer that question.
Q. Did you talk to Joe Yanny about whether or not Corydon should be a member of your church?
A. My communications with Mr. Yanny regarding such matters are privileged and I will not answer that question.
Q. What privilege?
A. Priest-penitent privilege.
Q. Who's the priest?
MR. BERRY: Also possible work product.
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MR. GREENE: Join.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Who's the priest?
A. In that paradigm we both are.
Q. Your relationship with Yanny, you both are?
A. Right.
Q. Yanny is a priest, too?
A. Yanny is a priest.
Q. What religion?
A. I've explained it to you before, but I --
MR. GREENE: Wait a minute, wait.
Objection. That's --
MR. MOXON: What --
MR. GREENE: Objection. The question is argumentative.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. What religion?
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy. First Amendment.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. What religion?
A. The church.
Q. The one that you -- the one that you
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created?
A. The church. I've given you how it's referred to previously.
Q. Who's the penitent in your relationship with Yanny?
MR. BERRY: Objection, calls for privileged communication.
THE WITNESS: We both are.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Do you have a list of members of your church?
A. I will not answer that.
Q. You refuse?
A. Yes.
Q. Is there any membership criteria for your church?
A. I --
MR. GREENE: Objection, that's been asked and answered at the last deposition.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
MR. GREENE: The answer was if anybody asked or desired to be a member, they could.
MR. BERRY: Also relevancy.
BY MR. MOXON:
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Q. Are you going to adopt what Mr. Greene just said?
A. That's fine.
Q. Is that accurate?
A. I will repeat one more time so that you fully understand.
Q. I'd like to fully understand.
A. The church has a belief, the church has a corollary and there's the obvious.
Q. Is there any --
A. The belief is --
Q. Excuse me.
A. -- that when members of the church are present, God is present. Corollary thereto, and I'm certain that you have had this many, many times, that therefore things that are said or done between members of the church are sacred and the obvious is that it always has been, is now and will ever be.
Q. Is there any membership criteria for your church?
MR. BERRY: Objection asked and answered.
MR. GREENE: Objection of relevance.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. Members agree that that is the belief
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of the church.
Q. Is there any membership criteria of your church?
MR. GREENE: Objection, argumentative.
Asked and answered. Don't answer that question.
MR. MOXON: It's not responsive.
MR. GREENE: It was responsive. That's your opinion. Don't answer the question. You gave your answer, that's it.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. You refuse to answer?
A. It has been answered.
MR. GREENE: I'm instructing you not to answer the question.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. What's the membership criteria of your church?
MR. GREENE: Objection, that's asked and answered.
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
MR. GREENE: Argumentative.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. And I need an answer. Are you
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refusing to answer, Mr. Armstrong?
MR. BERRY: I think it would also be fair for him to follow the advice of counsel.
MR. GREENE: When I instruct Mr. Armstrong not to answer, that instruction stands. And we'll deem it that he does refuse to answer unless he disregards that. I would advise Mr. Armstrong not to do that.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. What's the question?
Q. What is the membership criteria of your church?
MR. GREENE:, Objection. Relevancy, asked and answered,argumentative.
THE WITNESS: Can you read back my last answer to that question?
(Whereupon, the record was read.)
THE WITNESS: That's correct.
MR. GREENE: Answered.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. The question was, Mr. Armstrong, what is the membership criteria of your church?
MR. GREENE: Objection. It's asked and answered. It's harassment. If you don't move on,
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Counsel, we're going to leave. You can ask him whether there are any other criteria. He gave you the criteria. He said the criteria was the belief.
MR. MOXON: That's not responsive.
MR. GREENE: If you want to ask him something else, ask him something else. That's what he said. That's his response. Even if you don't like his response.
MR. MOXON: He said there isn't any criteria.
MR. GREENE: He said it's the belief.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. I need a specific response.
A. And I would ask that you do not flip me off when you're sitting across the table when the court reporter cannot see it. Do it one more time, I'll have to leave.
Q. What are you talking about?
A. That very subtle little way you stick your finger in the air when you don't like the answer.
Q. That's --
A. And I don't like it.
Q. That's an absolute falsehood.
A. You should know what you're doing
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over there.
Q. Did he tell you to say that?
A. No, he didn't. I saw it.
Q. Did Mr. Greene tell you to say that?
MR. GREENE: Objection, attorney-client privilege.
MR. MOXON: You're going to claim --
MR. GREENE: Do not answer that.
MR. MOXON: You claim privilege on that?
Priest penitent to that question?
MR. GREENE: Absolutely.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Did Mr. Greene tell you to say that?
A. Listen, it's not very subtle.
MR. GREENE: Objection, attorney-client privilege.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer please?
MR. GREENE: The instruction is not to answer. Just say I refuse to answer and let's move on.
THE WITNESS: I refuse to answer.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. What's the membership criteria of your church?
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A. (No audible response.)
Q. I just need an answer or refusal to answer.
MR. GREENE: Objection, that's been asked and answered.
MR. MOXON: Okay.
MR. GREENE: Don't answer.
MR. BERRY: And relevancy.
MR. GREENE: Don't answer the question.
Just tell him you refuse to answer that question.
THE WITNESS: I refuse to answer that question.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. When did --
A. Let me qualify that. Plus it's been answered.
Q. When did Joseph Yanny allegedly become a member of your church?
MR. BERRY: Objection calls for privileged communication.
MR. GREENE: Join.
THE WITNESS: And in addition, it has been answered in the previous deposition.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
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A. No.
Q. You refuse?
A. Yes.
Q. Other than yourself and I guess you've identified CORYDON and Yanny, are there other person's who serve as priests of your church?
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.
MR. GREENE: I join in that.
THE WITNESS: I note by the way that you --
MR. GREENE: Also, First Amendment, privacy.
THE WITNESS: That you use the term "priest" in a very sarcastic manner. And I also have not used the term priest. It is not the title that is given to people in the church.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. What is the title?
A. It fits within the priest penitent or clergyman penitent paradigm.
Q. Are there any titles in your church at all?
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.
MR. GREENE: Join.
THE WITNESS: So within that paradigm, there are people who perform that function.
BY MR. MOXON:
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Q. Are there any titles in your church at all?
MR. BERRY: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. What are they?
A. Belief, corollary, obvious.
Q. Are there any titles of any human beings in your church, that any human beings hold?
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.
THE WITNESS: There are many human beings. A lot of them have titles. A lot of those people with titles are members of the church.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. What are the titles? Identify the titles that are utilized in your church?
MR. GREENE: Objection, assumes facts not in evidence.
MR. BERRY: Also relevancy.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. If any?
MR. GREENE: Vague and ambiguous.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. What's your question?
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Q. Identify any titles that are used in your church?
MR. GREENE: Same objections.
MR. BERRY: Also vague and ambiguous.
THE WITNESS: The question is meaningless and I cannot answer it.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. There are no titles used in your church?
A. That question is meaningless, as is your sarcastic statement is likewise meaningless.
Q. Are there any titles used in your church?
MR. BERRY: Objection ambiguous.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. For people?
MR. BERRY: Relevancy.
THE WITNESS: People is a good one. There are people in our church and that is a title which is given. People, yes.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Are there any titles of any person who holds any position in your church?
MR. BERRY: Objection.
MR. GREENE: Objection. Vague and
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ambiguous, relevancy.
MR. BERRY: My objection was vague. Join.
THE WITNESS: Titles which may be used in our church I feel are completely protected and I do not care to hand them over to you to be ridiculed.
That is inappropriate for this place and it's inappropriate for a court of law.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. You refuse to answer?
A. It certainly is irrelevant as to the Yanny case.
Q. You refuse to answer?
A. Yes.
Q. Has anyone in your church been ordained?
MR. GREENE: Objection, vague, ambiguous, no foundation.
MR. BERRY: Relevancy.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. What does "ordained" mean?
Q. It means they have been installed with authority by the church to act as a minister or like function?
A. The answer, then, is yes.
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Q. By whom?
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.
THE WITNESS: You just -- you answered that with your own question.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Who has ordained them?
A. You answered that with your own question.
Q. Who has ordained them?
A. You answered that with your own question.
Do you want to read back the question please?
Q. The question -- don't bother.
Questions don't answer questions, Mr. Armstrong. If you feel that I -- a question that I've asked answered it, I can appreciate that viewpoint.
Nevertheless, I need a response from you that is responsive to my question.
Who has ordained them?
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.
MR. GREENE: First Amendment, privacy.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
MR. BERRY: Ambiguous.
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THE WITNESS: No, I refuse.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Is Mr. Wynne, Richard Wynne a member of your church?
MR. BERRY: Objection relevancy.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. I cannot answer that question at this time.
Q. Why?
A. I don't have the information with which to answer it.
Q. Where is the information?
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.
MR. GREENE: If you don't know, say that you don't know.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Why not?
MR. GREENE: Objection. Come on, Counsel. He says he didn't know. That's the answer to the question. Why he doesn't know, how can he know why he doesn't know something?
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Why not?
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MR. GREENE: That's badgering. That's argumentative. Don't answer the question.
MR. BERRY: Join.
MS. BARTILSON: He doesn't know. If he's instructed by counsel he doesn't know, I think he should say it then. Simple answer to a simple question.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. You refuse to answer?
A. What's the question?
Q. Why not? You don't know whether or not --
MR. GREENE: Vague, vague and ambiguous.
THE WITNESS: Because.
MR. BERRY: Argumentative.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Why don't you know whether or not Mr. Wynne is member?
MR. GREENE: Same objections.
MR. BERRY: Join, including relevancy.
THE WITNESS: The question verges on the moronic. Now I understand that you do this just to taunt me, just to ridicule me, just to harass me.
But it is as stupid as me asking you why don't you know if somebody is not a scientologist. How come
264
you don't know? It's ludicrous.
MR. GREENE: It also calls for speculation.
MR. BERRY: I think there's an instruction not to answer.
MR. GREENE: There is an instruction not to answer, so let's just move on.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Oh, you refuse to answer that? Well, do you have a membership list that would tell you whether or not Mr. Wynne is a member?
MR. BERRY: Asked and answered.
MR. GREENE: Join.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. I refuse.
Q. Do you know who the members of your church are?
MR. BERRY: Asked and answered.
MR. GREENE: Join.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. I refuse.
MR. BERRY: Relevancy.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. You don't have any building, any
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church building?
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.
THE WITNESS: I refuse to answer.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Have you ever had any priest-penitent communications with Mr. Wynne?
MR. BERRY: Objection. Relevancy, calls for privileged communication.
MR. GREENE: No foundation.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. I refuse.
Q. Is Vicki Aznaran a member of your church?
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.
MR. GREENE: Join.
MR. BERRY: Calls for privileged communication.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. I refuse.
Q. How about Mr. Greene? Is he a member of your church?
A. I refuse to answer.
Q. Do you consider me to be a member of
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your church?
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.
MR. GREENE: You can answer the question. Let's move on here.
THE WITNESS: I don't believe so.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Is Judge Cardenas a member of your church?
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.
MR. GREENE: Yes, join. It's also can --
it's badgering the witness. Don't answer that question, Mr. Armstrong. That's just badgering.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. It's a yes or no question?
MR. GREENE: I don't care if it's yes or no.
It's badgering. Don't answer the question.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
MR. GREENE: Say, "I refuse to answer the question." Let's move on.
THE WITNESS: It's mockery and I refuse.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Is Judge Breckenridge a member of your church?
A. That is --
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MR. BERRY: Relevancy.
MR. GREENE: Counsel, if you're going to continue to badger the witness, we'll walk. All right? This is ridiculous. Don't badger the witness. Ask your questions. If they are legitimate, that's fine. Otherwise, we're going to walk.
MR. MOXON: Mr. Greene, calm down.
MR. GREENE: I'm not going to sit here --
no, I'm not going to calm down. I'm not going to sit here while you badger my client.
MR. MOXON: The only badgering is your ridiculous objections. I'm asking questions that Judge Cardenas permitted me to ask and I'm trying to find out what the scope is of this claim of privilege.
MR. GREENE: Well, then let's keep it to
what you are entitled to do. There is -- you're not entitled to ask ridiculous questions about whether or not Judge Cardenas is a member of Armstrong's church or Judge Breckenridge is a member of Armstrong's church.
MR. MOXON: I --
MR. GREENE: And those, by their nature and by the tone, they are badgering and I'm not going to
268
sit here while you badger Jerry Armstrong and neither is he.
MR. MOXON: So, for the record, figure out what you're going to do.
MR. GREENE: I told him not to answer. For the record, I'll tell you again, don't answer questions that are abusive and badgering.
MR. MOXON: So, for the record, you're not going to answer this question, right?
THE WITNESS: Right.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Do you know the members of your church?
MR. BERRY: Objection, asked and answered, relevancy.
MR. GREENE: That's right. It is asked and answered and it's also more badgering. Don't answer that question. He's told you some of the members of his church.
MS. BARTILSON: He hasn't answered. He still hasn't answered.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Do you know who the members of your church are, Mr. Armstrong?
MR. GREENE: Same objection. You can answer
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that yes.
MR. BERRY: Join.
THE WITNESS: And I must answer it in the same way that you would answer do you know the members of your church? You don't. You can't. It's an impossibility. You're asking a stupid question. Let's move on.
MR. GREENE: Also, it calls for speculation.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. The answer is no?
MR. BERRY: Mischaracterizes his answer.
THE WITNESS: Yes, it mischaracterizes.
MR. MOXON: All right.
MR. GREENE: Join.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Do you know who the members of your church are? Yes or no you don't?
MR. GREENE: Calls for speculation.
MR. BERRY: Foundation, mischaracterizes his testimony. It's argumentative.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
MR. GREENE: You can answer.
MR. BERRY: It's not relevant.
THE WITNESS: So the answer is I certainly
270
know some. I may not know them all.
MR. GREENE: Good answer.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. So people could be members of your church and not have any communication with you, is that what you're saying?
MR. BERRY: Objection.
MR. GREENE: Objection, calls for speculation.
MR. BERRY: It also mischaracterizes his testimony.
MR. GREENE: Join.
MR. MOXON: I'll answer.
MS. BARTILSON: Let him answer the question.
It doesn't mischaracterize anything, it's a question.
MR. GREENE: Calls for speculation.
MS. BARTILSON: Let him speculate.
THE WITNESS: Could be.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. It could be that you don't know all the members of your church? Who all the members of your church are or -- excuse me?
A. It could be.
Q. It could be that you don't know
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people who are members of your church; is that right?
A. Correct.
MR. GREENE: Okay.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Okay. So I take it then you have no membership list?
MR. BERRY: That mischaracterizes his testimony.
MR. GREENE: Objection.
MR. BERRY: Relevance.
MR. GREENE: It's argumentative.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. I will not answer about membership lists.
Q. What does someone have to do to become a member of your church?
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.
MR. GREENE: Asked and answered. It's just a criteria question in a different form.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
MR. GREENE: Don't answer the question.
THE WITNESS: I have answered it. I refuse
272
to answer it again.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. You're refusing to answer the question?
MR. GREENE: Objection, that's asked and answered. He just -- he just gave you his response.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. I never received an answer to that question. What does someone have to do to become a member of your church?
MR. GREENE: Objection, asked and answered.
MR. BERRY: Join and irrelevant.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. Just so that we can move on, I will repeat the answer.
Q. Okay.
A. Again.
Q. Okay.
A. They must agree that that is the belief of the church, that is that when members are together, God is present. I
Q. And anyone who accepts that belief is a member?
MR. GREENE: Objection, asked and answered.
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MR. BERRY: Mischaracterizes his testimony.
MR. MOXON: I'm asking --
MR. GREENE: He just gave you the answer.
You asked him what does somebody do to --
MR. MOXON: Calm down, Mr. Greene.
MR. GREENE: I'm not going to calm down.
It's a waste of time. You're asking the same question over and over and over again.
MS. BARTILSON: There are criteria before one can claim the priest-penitent privilege that your client has claimed. So let's let him ask a few foundational questions and then we can move on.
MR. GREENE: He's being --
MS. BARTILSON: Your instruction is not
helping, Mr. Greene.
MR. MOXON: If we added up the number of lines that we have all expended, Mr. Greene, yours is going to far exceed everyone else's put together.
MR. GREENE: Great.
MR. BERRY: I think that he has an objection and an instruction.
MR. GREENE: I'm not suggesting anything. I am -- I just want to you to ask a decent question and let's move on and don't ask the same q
274
MR. MOXON: Would you read back the pending question, please?
MR. GREENE: The pending question is what does somebody have to do to become a member of the church.
MS. BARTILSON: No, that is not the pending questioning. There was one after that.
(Record read.)
MR. MOXON: Okay.
MS. BARTILSON: There was another.
THE WITNESS: The question was -- what's the second question?
MR. MOXON: I'll ask another question.
Q. As long as someone believes in your basic belief, are they automatically a member of your church?
MR. BERRY: Objection, mischaracterizes his testimony. Also irrelevant.
MR. GREENE: Vague and ambiguous. Calls for speculation.
MR. BERRY: Join.
THE WITNESS: Also not understandable so therefore I cannot answer it.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. If someone accepts the basic belief,
275
are they automatically a member of your church?
MR. GREENE: Same objection.
MR. BERRY: Join.
THE WITNESS: I don't know what you mean by automatically.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. By virtue of acceptance of the belief of your church, does one become a member?
MR. BERRY: Objection, vague and ambiguous, unintelligible, confusing.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. Perhaps I can help you out here.
Q. No, answer my question. That'll help me out.
A. Your question doesn't make any sense because you refuse to understand.
Q. Well, I'm trying to understand. The best way for me to understand is for you to answer my questions. You answer my questions and eventually we'll come to an understanding and the court can come to an understanding too
A. I believe you must ask questions that must make some sense.
Q. Well, tell me how one becomes a
276
member of the church then?
A. Okay. I'll do that.
Q. All right.
A. And this is the third time.
MR. GREENE: And the last.
THE WITNESS: Or fourth, but I'll do it again because you do have difficulty understanding it.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. I certainly do.
A. I'll make this --
MR. GREENE: Just give him the answer please.
THE WITNESS: They simply agree that the belief is the belief.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. There are no other criteria; correct?
A. Correct.
Q. With whom do they agree?
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.
MR. GREENE: Objection. And it mischaracterizes his testimony.
MR. BERRY: Also vague and ambiguous.
THE WITNESS: The question does make no sense whatsoever.
277
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. So they just -- if a person accepts in his own mind that belief, are they a member of the church?
A. They --
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.
THE WITNESS: They clearly can.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. They can be, but not necessarily?
A. You have constructed something in your mind which does not fit with reality, so your question becomes unintelligible.
Q. Answer my question. By such acceptance you're not necessarily a member?
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.
THE WITNESS: You're dealing with a hypothetical.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. Your question doesn't make sense.
Q. Well, you said they could be, but they might not be. I'm trying to find out.
A. Is that not enough?
Q. No, it's not.
A. Okay. You don't like the answer, I
278
can't help you with that.
Q. You can help me by clarifying it.
Does that mean that by acceptance one doesn't necessarily become a member of your church?
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.
MR. GREENE: Also calls for speculation.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. I don't understand the question.
Q. Can one accept the basic belief and still not be a member of your church?
MR. BERRY: Objection, ambiguous.
MR. GREENE: Calls for speculation.
MR. BERRY: And irrelevant.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
MR. BERRY: And vague as to what?
THE WITNESS: And I'm not sure what you mean.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Well, let me explain it this way. As I understand your testimony, and correct me if I'm wrong, when one accepts the basic belief, then one can become a member; is that correct?
A. No.
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MR. GREENE: Objection, asking him to comment on his own testimony. That's been asked and answered.
MR. MOXON: That's a new objection. Asking someone to comment on their own testimony is some kind of testimonial objection? Okay.
MS. BARTILSON: This is a great trial expense.
MR. BERRY: It certainly mischaracterizes the testimony.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Well, if the court reporter accepts the basic belief that one becomes a member of the hurch by accepting such belief, does that make her a member?
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy both to this litigation and to the foundational aspect on the priest-penitent privilege.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
MR. GREENE: Join.
THE WITNESS: The church has one belief, it has one corollary and there's the obvious. If the court reporter agrees that that is the belief of the church, that is sufficient. She may be a member of
280
the church.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Are there any specific practices in your church?
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy to both this litigation and foundational aspects of the privilege.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
MR. GREENE: First Amendment and privacy.
THE WITNESS: I have answered that previously and that is that the practice and function is forgiveness.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Other than forgiveness, is there any practice of your church?
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.
THE WITNESS: I don't know what you mean by other than forgiveness?
MR. GREENE: Objection, vague and ambiguous.
Just rephrase the question.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Is forgiveness a practice --
MR. GREENE: Objection.
BY MR. MOXON:
281
Q. -- in your church?
MR. GREENE: Objection, asked and answered.
Don't answer that again.
THE WITNESS: I refuse to answer.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. I'm a little confused, Mr. Armstrong.
A. I know that.
Q. If you could help me out, I'd really appreciate it.
A. Okay.
Q. I don't know whether or not your church has any practices as the world understands religious practices generally to be?
MR. GREENE: Objection, vague and ambiguous.
MR. MOXON: Excuse me, Mr. Greene. I didn't ask a question yet. Chill out.
Q. I'm trying to understand your church by virtue of my understanding of a number of other religions that have been in the world for a long time and presently exist. I'm asking you these questions to aid my understanding and the Court's understanding because they'll only understand by what you and I tell the Court.
A. I disagree with that. I think that the --
282
MR. GREENE: That's -- no, hold on Mr. Armstrong. There's no question. You don't need to get into any kind of philosophical debate or discussion.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. So my question is first, foundationally, do you understand the term religious practices as used in other religions?
MR. GREENE: Objection.
MR. BERRY: Vague.
MR. GREENE: Calls for speculation. It's vague, there's no foundation.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Do you understand what I mean by the term religious practices as used in other religions?
MR. GREENE: Objection.
MR. BERRY: Vague and ambiguous, relevant -- irrelevant.
MR. GREENE: Which -- oh, come on. Jesus.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. This is foundational and I'm going to ask you about your church.
A. I understand the term religious practice.
Q. Okay. Is --
283
A. But not as you understand it. So don't leap off with this assumption.
Q. Well, tell me what your understanding is of religious practice?
A. Forgiveness.
Q. So is forgiveness then a religious practice of your church?
MR. GREENE: Objection. That's been asked and answered. Don't answer that question again.
MR. BERRY: It's also irrelevant.
MR. GREENE: And it's argumentative. Don't answer the question. Just tell him, "I'm not going to answer the question."
THE WITNESS: That's correct. I'm not going to answer.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. All right. Are there any practices in your church?
MR. GREENE: Objection, that's asked and answered and it's argumentative. It's badgering.
Don't answer that question.
MR. BERRY: Also irrelevant.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer.
A. (No audible response.)
284
Q. Answer?
A. The church has a belief, a corollary and the obvious.
Q. Okay.
A. And to me, all of that is obvious. It is obvious to me that it is not obvious to you.Nevertheless, that is what the church is about.
Q. Are there any other -- are there any practices that the church has in the sense of something that's actually done physically? Any physical practices?
I'll give you some examples. Like in some Christian churches, they have a communion ceremony, their marriage ceremonies, there's prayer. Those are things that are practices and you can see people doing it. You can walk into a Catholic church and see someone praying. You can see someone singing a hymn. Are there any physical practices in your church --
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. -- as I've used that term?
MR. GREENE: Objection, vague and ambiguous, compound.
THE WITNESS: So that you understand, the
285
answer is yes.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. What are those practices, those physical practices?
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.
THE WITNESS: Whatever is said or done between members of the church.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Okay. So if you and another member of your church communicate with each other on any subject, that is a practice of your church?
MR. BERRY: Objection relevancy.
THE WITNESS: The practice of the church, and just so we're really very clear where this term practice came from, that originated in my specific relationship with others and what was my practice and my function.
So what we are talking about here is my practice and my function regarding the church and regarding its members globally. It has a belief, it has a corollary and there's the obvious.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Is every communication between yourself and another member of your church a practice of your church?
286
A. I've told you.
MR. BERRY: Objection, calls for privileged communications.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Yes or no?
MR. BERRY: Also irrelevant.
THE WITNESS: The practice is forgiveness.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Is there any activity, any -- excuse me, is any communication between yourself and another member of your church a practice of your church?
A. It is sacred.
Q. Is any communication between yourself and another member of your church a practice of your church?
MR. BERRY: Objection, vague, compound and ambiguous. Irrelevant.
MR. GREENE: Join.
THE WITNESS: The practice is forgiveness.
Anything that is said or done between members of the church is sacred.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Absolutely anything?
MR. BERRY: Objection argumentative.
287
MR. GREENE: Join in that.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Without limitation?
A. As I have -- I have explained --
MR. GREENE: Objection.
MR. BERRY: Relevancy.
THE WITNESS: As I have explained to you and put in a declaration, it is qualified where matters of safety, courtesy, wisdom, or its opposite, stupidity enters in, then those are addressed.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Those aren't part of your practices?
MR. GREENE: Objection, vague and ambiguous.
MR. BERRY: Also argumentative.
THE WITNESS: That is part of my practice.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. What is?
A. What I just explained to you.
MR. GREENE: What he just said.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. So, if you're doing something unsafe, that is not a part of your practice?
MR. GREENE: Objection.
MR. BERRY: Objection. Vague and ambiguous, irrelevant, asked and answered.
288
MR. GREENE: No foundation.
THE WITNESS: You misstate what I stated.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Yes. I'm just trying --
A. You mischaracterize.
Q. I'm just trying to understand.
A. No, you're not trying to understand. You're trying to harass.
MR. GREENE: Just -- don't. Just answer the question, okay? Don't argue, just answer the questions. Don't argue.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. That's the best instruction we've had.
Please answer. My questions are quite simple. If you answer them, it will move along and you can go back to do what you do.
MR. BERRY: Some of them call for privileged communication.
MS. BARTILSON: None of them have in the last 45 minutes.
MR. MOXON: Well, we'll find out about that.
MR. GREENE: Great.
MR. MOXON: We'll let the Judge find out, won't we, and we'll have a good 'ol time. It seems
289
to be so funny.
Q. Is every communication between yourself and another church member a practice of your church?
A. I'll repeat it one more time.
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Yes or no is all I need now.
A. Your question doesn't make any sense.
I've stated many times that it has a belief, a corollary and the obvious. My practice and my function is forgiveness. Now, I notice that during the time that I'm answering this question, counsel has gone off and chosen to engage himself in a communication with his associate counsel, totally ignoring my answer. I consider that very rude. It does not make this deposition go any more smoothly. It does not make me more --
MS. BARTILSON: Are you making a speech, Mr. Armstrong, instead of answering the question?
Go ahead. Go ahead. I'm sorry. You're entitled to make a speech.
MR. BERRY: Are we double teaming here?
BY MR. MOXON:
290
Q. Have you ever shared any alcohol with Joseph Yanny?
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. That is, have you ever gone drinking with him and spoken to him over a beer or something like that?
MR. GREENE: You can answer that question.
THE WITNESS: I think there have been times in a setting like that.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. During that communication with Mr. Yanny, in that setting, was that part of your religious practice?
MR. GREENE: Objection.
MR. BERRY: Mischaracterizes his testimony.
MR. GREENE: It's also vague as to time.
Don't answer that question.
MR. BERRY: And it's irrelevant.
BY MR.MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. No, I won't answer that.
Q. You refuse?
A. Yes.
Q. What basis?
291
MR. GREENE: I just instructed him not to answer on the basis that it is vague as to time. Clean it up and I think you can get an answer.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. You have the time in mind when you were sitting with Yanny having some alcohol together, Mr. Armstrong?
A. No, I don't have a specific time.
MR. BERRY: Does it have to be alcohol?
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. You don't know? You don't recall any specific time now?
A. Nothing comes to mind.
Q. So you want to change your testimony?
Have you had such a meeting or not; yes or no?
MR. GREENE: Objection. That's argumentative.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. No, I want to know which. We seem to have conflicting testimony.
What I want to know -- just calm down. Let me finish my question and then you can make any objection you want, Mr. Greene, okay? Just calm down.
Do you remember any specific time when you
292
and Mr. Yanny were sitting down drinking together; yes or no?
MR. BERRY: Objection, right of privacy as to drinking.
MR. GREENE: You can answer that question.
THE WITNESS: I'm trying to think of a time.
MR. GREENE: If you can't recall, tell him you can't recall.
THE WITNESS: No, no specific time comes to mind.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Do you remember a time when you talked to Joseph Yanny specifically?
A. I recall talking to Joseph Yanny.
Q. Has every communication you ever had with Joseph Yanny been part of the religious practice of your church?
MR. BERRY: Objection, mischaracterizes his testimony.
MR. MOXON: It's a question.
MS. BARTILSON: There's no testimony to mischaracterize. Surely you can think of something better than that.
MR. BERRY: Give me time.
THE WITNESS: I -- you --
293
MR. GREENE: Wait, wait, wait. Just, if you just give a direct response, just respond. Don't argue. If you don't understand the question, make him repeat the question, but give a direct response.
THE WITNESS: Yes. Again, regarding the subject of practice, you have mischaracterized whatever I've said about that.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Okay. So I take it, then, the answer would be no, every communication you ever had with Joseph Yanny is not part of.your religious practice?
A. No. You're mischaracterizing what I said.
MR. GREENE: Wait a minute. Just answer the question. Don't fight with Mr. Moxon. Just answer the question. He can -- it does call for a yes or no answer and you can answer it.
THE WITNESS: All the communications between Mr. Yanny and myself are sacred.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Do you remember when you were driving to the Court of Appeals with Mr. Yanny and Toby Plevin?
MR. BERRY: Objection, no foundation.
BY MR. MOXON:
294
Q. Do you remember that incident?
MR. GREENE: Wait. Objection, no foundation and vague as to time. Don't answer the question until he cleans up the time.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Do you remember the time when you and Yanny were driving to the Court of Appeals together with Toby Plevin?
A. Yes.
Q. Good. Was that a sacred conversation you were having with Yanny in the car?
A. Whatever was said between Mr. Yanny and myself was sacred.
Q. Was Toby Plevin a member of your church when the conversation began?
MR. BERRY: Clarify something.
THE WITNESS: I can't answer that.
MR. BERRY: When was this, Counsel? Do you have a date in mind?
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Is Toby Plevin a member of your church now?
A. I can't answer that.
Q. You don't know?
A. Right.
295
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. When you're talking -- when you were talking to Joseph Yanny about what happened during the original arrangement at the Court of Appeals, is that a sacred conversation?
MR. BERRY: Objection, lacks foundation.
There's been no testimony to that. Calls for privileged communication.
MR. MOXON: Why don't you read the prior deposition, Mr. Berry?
MR. BERRY: Also it calls for privileged communication, attorney work product privilege.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. Communications between Mr. Yanny and myself are sacred.
Q. Have you ever talked to Mr. Yanny about sports? The Lakers, the Dodgers, some football team, any basketball team?
MR. GREENE: Objection, irrelevant, not calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
296
MR. BERRY: Join.
THE WITNESS: Communications between Mr. Yanny and myself are sacred.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer my question?
A. I've answered it.
Q. You refuse to tell me whether or not you have ever spoken to Mr. Yanny about sports?
A. Right.
Q. Have you ever spoken to Mr. Yanny about what food you should eat?
MR. GREENE: Objection, irrelevant.
MR. BERRY: Join.
THE WITNESS: The answer -- my answer is the same as my answer for the last question.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. You refuse to answer?
A. Right.
Q. Have you ever spoken to Mr. Yanny about when there is a court appearance or when there is a deposition?
MR. BERRY: Objection, calls for privileged communication, attorney work product privilege.
MR. GREENE: It's also vague as to time.
Don't answer the question.
297
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
MR. BERRY: There's an instruction.
MR. GREENE: Just say, "I'm not going to answer the question."
THE WITNESS: In addition to that, I've already answered it. Your deposition, the prior deposition contains that information.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. So you, so as a foundational matter, you recall giving prior testimony about speaking to Mr. Yanny about the fact that you were going to be deposed in this case; is that right?
A. Correct.
Q. All right. Was that a sacred communication?
A. Yes.
MR. BERRY: Objection, also calls for attorney work product privilege and information.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. I don't think there's much point making an objection after the question's been answered, Mr. Berry. But if you want to talk on the record, I guess.
MS. BARTILSON: It's keeping him awake.
298
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Do you remember the time that you and Yanny and I met in the courthouse?
MR. GREENE: Objection that's been asked and answered. Don't answer.
MR. MOXON: It's a foundational question, Greene.
MR. GREENE: You can call me Mr. Greene, Mr. Moxon, or otherwise we're going to walk.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
MR. BERRY: Objection, vague as to time.
MR. GREENE: I'm telling you don't answer that question. It's been asked and answered.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. I'm going to follow my attorney's instructions.
Q. During the conversation that you, Yanny and I had in the courthouse, was that a sacred communication?
MR. BERRY: Objection, vague as to time.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Was the conversation that you and I
299
had in Mr. Yanny's presence sacred?
A. Yes.
Q. Is every conversation you have with any person in Mr. Yanny's presence sacred?
A. It can be.
Q. Is this conversation we're having right now sacred?
A. It could be.
Q. Is it?
A. It is.
Q. What makes it sacred, according to the practices of your church?
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevancy.
THE WITNESS: If you understood who you were and what you were, you would understand sacredness.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. What makes it sacred?
A. Because of who we are.
MR. GREENE: Objection irrelevant.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Is Barry Van Sickle a member of your church?
MR. BERRY: Objection relevancy.
MR. GREENE: Also --
MR. BERRY: Also asked and answered long
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ago.
MR. GREENE: And associational privacy.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Is Cummins and White?
MR. BERRY: Objection, relevance.
THE WITNESS: I won't answer.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. I won't answer.
MS. BARTILSON: That's protected.
MR. BERRY: Off the record.
(Discussion was held off the record.)
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Did you ever talk to Joe Yanny about Vicki Aznaran's relationship with the Church of Scientology?
MR. BERRY: Objection, calls for privileged communication.
MR. GREENE: In addition to that, it calls for attorney work product. Don't answer that question.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer please?
A. I'm sorry, I won't answer.
Q. Did you ever have any communication
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with Joseph Yanny about his own relationship with the Church of Scientology?
A. Same thing.
Q. You refuse to answer?
A. Right.
Q. Did Joseph Yanny ever mention to you that he was provided some form of counseling by Bent Corydon?
MR. BERRY: Objection, calls for privileged communications, including the attorney work product privilege.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. His communications to me are privileged.
Q. Answer?
A. I won't answer.
Q. Did this subject ever come up between you and Yanny?
A. I won't answer.
MS. BARTILSON: Is this on advice of counsel that you're not answering? We should clarify for the record.
THE WITNESS: It is, because --
MR. BERRY: Well, on behalf of Mr. Yanny,
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I'm asserting certain privileges which he and I hold, which is one of -- which is the attorney work product privilege.
MS. BARTILSON: All right. That part's clarified, thank you.
MR. BERRY: But I have given no instructions not to answer.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Did you ever have any -- by the way, is Mr. Berry here your lawyer?
MR. GREENE: No, I am.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Mr. Armstrong?
MR. BERRY: Well, if I am, it's news to me.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. No.
MR. MOXON: Thank you, Mr. Berry, for clarifying that for the witness because he is having a little trouble answering.
THE WITNESS: No, he wasn't.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Did you ever have any communications with Mr. Yanny about scientology?
MR. GREENE: Objection, vague as to time.
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MR. BERRY: Also calls for privileged communication and attorney work product privilege.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer? I said ever before, including this court order for Mr. Yanny to gather evidence in his defense in this case?
A. (No audible response.)
Q. Answer?
A. Mr. Yanny's communications to me I consider privileged.
Q. You refuse to answer?
A. Yes.
MR. MOXON: We'll take a break for a minute.
(Short recess was taken.)
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Mr. Armstrong, what literary matters is Joseph Yanny representing you on?
MR. GREENE: Objection, attorney-client privilege. Don't answer that question.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
MR. BERRY: Join.
THE WITNESS: No, I refuse to answer.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. What artistic matters is Yanny
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representing you on, if any?
MR. BERRY: Objection.
MR. GREENE: Same objection.
MR. BERRY: Plus it lacks foundation.
MR. GREENE: And relevancy.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. Same thing. I won't answer.
Q. Is Yanny representing you in any artistic matters?
MR. GREENE: Objection, asked and answered.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. Yes. This has been fully answered in the last day's deposition.
Q. Do you refuse to answer?
A. Other than that, I repeat everything that I said at that time now.
Q. Did you ever have any discussions with Joseph Yanny when he asked you to give him counseling and then you talked about legal matters?
MR. BERRY: Objection, calls for privileged communications by the attorney work product and the priest penitent.
MR. GREENE: Yes, I'll join in that and
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instruct the witness not to answer. It's also a compound question.
BY MR. MOXON:
Q. Answer?
A. I'll follow my attorney's instructions.
Q. Do you know if Joseph Yanny uses drugs?
MR. BERRY: Objection.
MR. GREENE: Irrelevant, also Fifth Amendment privilege. Don't answer that question.
THE WITNESS: I'll follow my attorney's instructions and won't answer ever.
MR. MOXON: Okay. We're going to seek a Motion to Compel and for sanctions. We will see you in court.
MR. BERRY: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Do you -- now that I'm here, do you -- does he want to take my deposition?
MR. MOXON: We're not done yet with your deposition.
(Short discussion was held off the record.)
MR. MOXON: The witness did not order a copy of the transcript so we don't have a dispute of that.
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THE WITNESS: You should probably --
MR. MOXON: Let's put a stipulation on how to deal with that later. Before you do --
MR. GREENE: Let's figure out what it is.
(Short discussion was held off the record.)
MR. MOXON: The stipulation is that the original will come to Bowles and Moxon and it will be maintained in our custody for any purposes of trial. A certified copy will be sent to Mr. Greene for the witness to review and make any changes he deems appropriate. If no changes are made within 30 days, it will be sent back to the court reporter. It will be deemed final for all purposes. We will expedite the transcript.
In the mean time, we do plan to use it in our Motion to Compel prior to the time Mr. Armstrong makes any changes, if any.
MR. GREENE: Okay, thank you. Fine.
MR. MOXON: And you're not ordering your own copy of the transcript?
MR. GREENE: No, that's correct.
(Deposition was adjourned at 12:50 p.m.)
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| STATE OF CALIFORNIA COUNTY OF MARIN |
) ) SS. ) |
I, the undersigned, declare under penalty of perjury that I have read the foregoing transcript, and I have made any corrections, additions, or deletions that I was desirous of making; that the foregoing is a true and correct transcript of my testimony contained therein.
EXECUTED this ____ day of____, 1992, at_____(City)___________, California.
____________________
GERALD ARMSTRONG
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REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
I, SHEENAGH M. CARLSON, CSR NO. 8350, Certified Shorthand Reporter, certify:
That the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the time and place therein set forth, at which time the witness was put under oath by me;
That the testimony of the witness and all objections made at the time of the examination were recorded stenographically by me and were thereafter transcribed;
That the foregoing is a true and correct transcript of my shorthand notes so taken.
I further certify that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney of any of the parties nor financially interested in the action.
Dated this Saturday, February 8, 1992
[signed Sheenagh M. Carlson] Certified Shorthand Reporter |
OFFICIAL SEAL
SHEENAGH M. CARLSON
NOTARY PUBLIC - CALIFORNIA
SONOMA COUNTY
My comm. expires DEC 25, 1993
