Gerry Armstrong--Reporters Transcript of Proceedings 06-01-1984 LASC 420153

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SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA

FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES

DEPARTMENT NO. 57 HON. PAUL G. BRECKENRIDGE, JR., JUDGE

CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY OF CALIFORNIA,

Plaintiff,

vs.

GERALD ARMSTRONG,

Defendant.

MARY SUE HUBBARD,

Intervenor.

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No. C 420153

REPORTERS' DAILY TRANSCRIPT

Friday, June 1, 1984

Volume 23

Pages 3990 to 4060, incl.

APPEARANCES:
(See Appearances Page)

NANCY L. HARRIS, CSR #644
HERB CANNON, CSR #1923
Official Reporters

APPEARANCES:

For the Plaintiff:

PETERSON & BRYNAN
BY: JOHN G. PETERSON
8530 Wilshire Boulevard
Suite 407
Beverly Hills, California 90211
(213) 659-9965

-and-

ROBERT N. HARRIS
The Oviatt Building
617 South Olive Street
Suite 915
Los Angeles, California 90014
(213) 623-7511

For the Intervenor:

LITT & STORMER
BY: BARRETT S. LITT
Paramount Plaza
3550 Wilshire Boulevard
Suite 1200
Los Angeles, California 90010
(213) 386-4303

-and-

BARRETT S. LITT
BY: MICHAEL S. MAGNUSON
The Oviatt Building
617 South Olive Street
Suite 1000
Los Angeles, California 90014
(213) 623-7511

For the Defendant:

CONTOS & BUNCH
BY: MICHAEL J. FLYNN

- and-

JULIA DRAGOJEVIC
5855 Topanga Canyon Boulevard
Suite 400
Woodland Hills, California 91367
(213) 716-9400

INDEX FOR VOLUME 23		Pages 3990 — 4160, incl.

DAY	DATE		PAGE

Friday	June 1, 1984	A.M.	3990
		P.M.	4070

WITNESSES

PLAINTIFF'S::	DIRECT	CROSS	REDIRECT	RECROSS

TINCH, Gene F.
(Resumed)	3991-P	3996
Burgess, Walter Charles	3998-H	4015	4029-H	4030
FLINN, Frank K.	4032-L
(Resumed)	4070-L	4097	4158-L

EXHIBITS

PLAINTIFF'S:	FOR IDENTIFICATION	IN EVIDENCE
90- (Previously marked for identification)		3998
92- Copy of a diagram	3993	3997

4031

THE COURT: We are back in session. Counsel are all

here.

Are we ready to go on with the next witness?

MR. LITT: Our next witness will be Frank Flinn, Your

Honor.

FRANK K. FLINN,

called as a witness by the Plaintiff on rebuttal, having been

duly sworn, testified as follows:

THE CLERK: Raise your right hand to be sworn,

please.

THE WITNESS: I do so swear.

THE CLERK: Be seated. Please, state your name and

spell your last name.

THE WITNESS: My name is Dr. Frank K. Flinn, F-l-i-n-n.

I live --

THE CLERK: Frank A.?

THE WITNESS: K.

4032

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, I an going to move to strike

any testimony from this witness. I have read affidavits

of Dr. Flinn, I believe his title is, and I assume that

the purpose of this testimony is to say Scientology is a

religion, which the court has already recognized, so I

think it is totally irrelevant testimony.

THE COURT: I don't know. What is your witness going

to testify to, Mr. Litt?

MR. LITT: He is going to testify to several matters,

Your Honor, and not really -- I mean the court has already

found that Scientology is a religion.

What he will do is talk about his familiarity

with Scientology, various practices that have been placed

in issue in this case in the context of practices of a

variety of religions, including the distinction between

eclesiastical power and corporate ozganization and various

religious movements.

THE COURT: Well I will go ahead and let the

witness testify and we will see what happens. You may proceed.

I will overrule the objection.

MR. LITT: Thank you.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. LITT:

Q Mr. Flinn, would you tell us what your

present occupation is.

A Okay. I am presently senior religion editor

with the Edwyn Mellen Press of Toronto and New York, and I

4033

do consultant work in ecumenical activities in regard to

dialogue between various religions.

Q Do you have any background or training in the

field of religion?

A Yes, I do.

Q And can you tell us what that is, please?

A Okay. I received my Bachelor of Arts degree in

philosophy, particularly in Medieval philosophy and partial

studies in psychology at Quincy College in Quincy, Illinois.

At that time I joined the Order of the

Friars Minor, known popularly as the Franciscans, and I

studied with the Franciscans until 1964.

I then attended Harvard Divinity School where

I took a Bachelor of Divinity degree in religion, and

subsequent to that time I studied at the Univeristy of

Heidelburg in Religious Studies and in philosophy, and then

I returned to the United States where I did a year's further

graduate work at Harvard Divinity, specializing in ancient

and Near Easter religion and also studied ancient and

Near Eastern religion at the University of Pennsylvania.

Subsequent to that time I taught for five

years and then I returned to the University of Toronto at

the University of St. Michael's College where I took a

doctorate in special religious studies, including Biblical

studies and I did a special division on new religious

movements.

Q And at Harvard Divinity, what place did you rank

in your class on graduation?

4034

A I graduated at the top of my class, magna cum

laude.

4035

Q Now, have you taught at all any courses in the

field of religion?

A Yes. I have taught many courses in the field

of religion.

I taught Biblical Studies at Newton College of

the Sacred Heart in Newton, Massachusettes.

I also taught Biblical Studies at Boston

College.

I taught courses in the Anthropology of Religion,

Religious Symbolism at LaSalle College in Philadelphia in

the summers from 1969 to 1973.

I was tutoring in Comparative Religion at the

University of Toronto in 1975.

I taught courses in American Religious Phenomenon,

plus many other types of courses, at St. Louis University

from '77 to '79.

MR. FLYNN: I have no objection to the witness'

qualifications, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Let's go forward, we don't need to spend

a lot of time on qualifications, counsel.

BY MR. LITT: You yourself, Dr. Flinn -- well,

let me ask one other background question.

In the context of your religious studies have

you mastered various languages to enable you to study

religious movements in history?

A Many ancient languages, yes; Greek, Hebrew,

Samarian, Arcadian, Latin.

I have also acquired the basics of one American

4036

Indian language when I was studying American Indian Religions

plus many modern languages.

Q And you yourself are a Roman Catholic?

A I am a practicing Roman Catholic.

Q At some time in the course of your study of

various religions did you do any investigation into the

subject of Scientology?

A Yes; as part of my -- I first got acquainted with

new religious movements in general when I taught the course

on the anthropology of religion at LaSalle, a graduate study

of religion, from 1969 on where I had students do field

reports and types of religious activities going on in

Philadelphia.

Subsequent to that time I did formal study of

a variety of newer religious phenomenon in doing my doctoral

studies among which was Scientology.

Q Can you tell the Court at this point what

opportunity have you had to study the subject of Scientology?

A I first became acquainted -- I knew about

Scientology already in 1970, but I had no particular direct

interest.

About 1976, I met -- interviewing a variety of

things that were going on in Toronto itself -- I met some

Scientologists. In the course of my doctoral study I started

getting interested in Scientology, whether or not it was even

a religion. I didn't know what kind of real phenomenon it

was.

I began reading the basic writings of Scientology,

4037

Dianetics, the fundamentals of thought. And subsequent to

that time I have read most of the basic Scientology writings

and done research into it.

I have also done -- at one point in 1979 I became

very formally interested in Scientology, And I conducted

a type of interview that I call a spiritual autobiography

where I tried to trace the life course of someone's faith

development which is a type of interview, I did 20 of those

interviews which were about three hours long with different

Scientologists.

I have subsequently interviewed many, many

Scientologists on a more informal basis about how they joined

the religion; how they joined; what motivated them to join;

what they saw in the religion; what the religion did for

them; how they described their meanings of their lives in

terms of their commitment to this movement. I have done this

type of interview with other groups too.

Q Approximately how many -- you indicated that you

did 20 formal interviews?

A Yes.

Q Approximately how many additional less formal

interviews have you been able to do?

A I have not kept close tabs on that, but it is

over 100 more informal ones.

I try to interview anyone I can meet.

Q Have you also visited any Scientology facilities

in order to observe the activities there?

A I have observed closely the Scientology Center

4038

in Toronto when I was doing my doctoral work. I observed

the Scientology facility, training procedures in St. Louis

and in Portland when I was there once and here in Los Angeles

and in Clearwater, Florida.

Q And have you recently published anything on the

subject of Scientology?

A Yes. I have a recent article which appeared in

a volume edited by Joseph Fichter, F-i-c-h-t-e-r, called

"Alternatives to Mainline Churches" which just recently

appeared last fall.

The title of the article is "Scientology is

Technological Buddhism."

4039

Q And is this the only article you have written

on the subject of Scientology?

A This is the only article directly on Scientology

itself.

Q And how many articles, without going into what

they all are, approximately how many articles in the

field of religion have you published?

A At least 25. I have not counted my list

recently. I have many more to add. My vitae is always

behind me.

Q Now, very briefly what are the characteristics

in your judgment that define a religion?

A In general, I use a general definition of

religion which I have arrived at from empirical study of

a variety of religions, both ancient and modern, and my

definition of religion is that religion has to contain a

system of beliefs, and these beliefs must be carried out in

what would traditionally be called practices of a spiritual

or religious nature.

I divide those practices into two different

kinds of practices. There are more ethical types of

practices which entail negative commands and positive

commands, taboos and positive urges.

This belief system and these practices, in

turn, serve to shape and form the spiritual life of an

identifiable community that has a commitment to some ultimate

reality.

Q And you have observed that Scientology meets

4040

these characteristics?

A Yes. I think Scientology definitely has a

belief system. That belief system is expressed in what

Scientology calls the creed of Scientology. I see the

essence of that creed residing in the conception that

human beings are what Scientologists call Thetans and which

is in traditional religious language means that they have

immortal souls, undying spirits.

Scientologists have both positive and negative

ethical types of commands and also ceremonial types

of activities. Their principal ceremonial life is expressed

through what they call auditing, which is a practice of,

they describe as a process of moving up the bridge through

the auditing process which has various grades of spiritual

perfection, very much like the types of spiritual contemplation

that one sees in the religious treatises of St. Ignatius'

"spiritual exerciser" and also of St. Bonaventure's "Journey

of the mind onto God."

The Church of Scientology seems to have --

definitely has what would be described as a heirarchical as

opposed to congregational religious organization.

Q Now can you describe for us the difference

between heirarchical and congregational form of religion

as that operates in various religious movements?

A The prevalent form of religious organization

historically in the United States has been what is known as

the congregational, and in congregational church policy,

such as you find generally among Presbyterians and Methodists

4041

and Baptists, is a polity where the congregation makes

decisions as a group.

Generally they have either boards of elders or

elected types of officials where the congregation or

parish itself makes decisions of what shall be the faith and

practices and organizations of a local congregation.

In heirarchical relision you have religious

figures -- in congregational, one way of describing is

authority is exercised on a horizontal way, out from the

parish in a more horizontal type of fashion.

In heirarchical religion authority is exercised

from the top down, and in heirarchical religion, you have

religious figures like popes or bishops or central religious

leaders who generally have under than various officers,

various divisions or compartments for the exercising of

authority from the top down.

The classic example of a heirarchical religion

has always been, according to scholars, the Roman Catholic

Church.

Q Just by way of reference, can you give some

other examples of heirarchical religions, not describe them,

but just name them as opposed to congregational religions?

A The Greek Orthodox Church which has a

patriarch and bishops under the patriarch would be described

as a hierarchical religion.

The Anglican Church of England would be, and

I suppose Episcopal churches in a different kind of way, but

they are still heirarchical. They have bishops in authority

4042

and the preservation of faith and doctrine is carried on

through offices of religious leaders like bishops, and

the Bhuddist --

4043

Buddhism itself has bishops. And it varies from

country to country.

In the Far East Buddhists also have Bishops who

exercise authority over the Sanghas or the monasteries below

them.

Q Now, have you had the opportunity to understand

what the word "scriptures" means within the context of

Scientology?

A Scientology has many, many writings.But

Scientologists seem to hold all of the writings of L. Ron

Hubbard or anything identifiable as the tech to be the

equivalent of their sacred scripture. That includes also

all of the policy statements that are collected in this long

series of volumes that are known as the "Green Books."

So it is in terms of tech and management manuals

plus the writings such as Dianetics, which is prelude to

Scientology, Scientology, Fundamentals of Thought; all of

these volumes are held to contain the scriptures for

Scientologists.

Q And in your understanding you have had the

opportunity to read and review these materials in large

part?

A It would take a lifetime to read all of the

Scientology literature.

I have read most of the basic books. And I have

sampled and surveyed most of the Red and Green Volumes at

various times.

Q And from what you have been able to observe from

4044

your study, can the Scientology scriptures be understood in

isolation from each other, or what approach is needed in order

to get an understanding of what the meaning of the scriptures

of Scientology is?

A It is very difficult to understand Scientology

because I myself found difficulty in the beginning because

they seem to use ordinary language in a very specialized type

of sense. And I found out that I had to reserve making

judgment about whether or not it was even, indeed, a religion

itself when I first began to study it until I had surveyed

a rather vast amount of material.

It is very easy to take some very controversial

points and focus on them. But one has to see how all the

parts fit together. And this is true with any other type

of religious scripture.

The Bible, one can take little passages out of

the Bible and sometimes even be upset by that unless you see

it in its context. It is very important to find out what

the contexts are in Scientology.

Q In the course of your study of religions have

you had the opportunity to take note of the role of a

charismatic leader in the formation and development of a

religion?

A Well, when I first did my interviews with

Scientologists, I found out that Mr. Hubbard seems to have

the function of a religious founder.

They call him "The Researcher," a friend that

has all of the characteristics of a charismatic leader.

4045

And traditionally, scholarship has identified

various religions, some as being bureaucratic-type religions,

organizational-type religions, and some as being religions

that had their beginnings in a charismatic-type movement.

Many people would say that Christianity today

is a kind of organizational religion. But in the early days

Christianity had what was called a charismatic leader.

L. Ron Hubbard seems to fit into the category

of a charismatic inaugurating figure, very much like the

Buddha or Buddhism or Moses for Judaism or Jesus for the

varieties of Christianity.

Also, he shares many kinds of characteristics

within Christianity of founders of religious orders.

Examples would be St. Francis of Assisi;

St. Ignatius of Loyola; St. Benedict, the founder of the

Benedictines.

4046

Q And where a charismatic leader of the type

that you talked about plays a role within a religious movement,

what are the main functions that that person plays?

A This person is generally seen as someone who

has an extraordinary perception of the ultimate reality,

someone who has a vision of ultimate truth, someone who has

achieved, for example, you could use St. Francis as an

example, a perfect immitation of Jesus Christ, someone who

has extraordinary powers of perception and vision of the

future. Those kinds of things that will generate a following.

Q And do such leaders play a role in the

development of cohesiveness for the religion?

A Yes, specially during the lifetimes. They

become the center of focus of the faith of the community,

and they retain what one would call a status of reference

for those who adhere to this movement.

Q I want to ask you some questions with respect

to some historical examples that parallel certain issues in

this case.

Let me ask you about St. Francis of Assisi

who was one of the persons that you mentioned. What role

did he originally play within the Franciscan Order?

A St. Francis --

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, I have tried not to object,

but we are now -- Assisi is what, 12th or 11th Century, and

we are now in the 20th.

THE COURT: I think we can abridge this a little bit.

MR. LITT: This will be very brief, but it does have

4047

a very important purpose as the court will see.

THE COURT: All right, go ahead. We will see what

happens.

THE WITNESS: There are certain analogies between

the life course of Francis of Assisi and L. Ron Hubbard.

Francis of Assisi was the founder of what is now known as

the Franciscan Order.

THE COURT: Is he the gentleman that eschewed poverty?

THE WITNESS: That is right; that followed poverty,

Your Honor.

I am not talking about their teaching; about

their life course. St. Francis founded the Order of the

Friars Minor and he stressed poverty intensely, but the

parallel between his life and the life of L. Ron Hubbard

is that he was originally the founder of the religious order,

and he received the title when the Order was approved by the

papacy. He received the title of Minister of the Order

or Servant General of the Order, and toward the end of

his life in -- toward the end of his life, he resigned

from being Minister of the Order and retained the role in

the status in the function of being the founder of the Order,

and all the friars called him Father, and he was the only

one that had the title of Father for the Order. In terms

of his life course doctrine, it was very much the opposite

of the doctrines of other religions.

Q BY MR. LITT: Now, after St. Francis resigned

from the title of Minister in his position as Father, did

he play any role in affecting the Francisca Order?

4048

A Immediately after he resigned which was

around, in terms -- it is hard to date it exactly, but

around 1220, the Franciscans by that time had spread all over

Europe. Somewhere around 30 to 40,000 Friars existed at

that time already, had a major chapter called the Chapter

of Mats, and a controversy arose within the Order whether

or not the Friars could own property collectively as a group

because up to that time they had taken vows of absolute

poverty individually and as a corporate group, and there were

various factions within the Order that were saying, "Well,

individually we, can't own property, but maybe collectively

we could own property."

And St. Francis was vehemently opposed to

the Friars owning property, either individually or collectively,

and he sent many messages to the Chapter of Mats and, in

fact, intervened as founder and said this would be

contrary to the essence of the religious vision of the way

of life that is in total immitation of Christ as he saw it,

and so he intervened directly in the decision, and the

Order subsequently decided the Chapter -- it was really

a convention of all Friars -- decided against collective

ownership through his intervention.

Q And was the fact of his intervention anything

unusual?

A No, not at all, particularly with someone who

is a religious founder. Many founders of religious orders,

particularly within the Roman Catholic tradition intervene

after they resign from executive positions because they were

4049

the ones who originally formulated the vision of faith

and doctrine.

4050

Q Now, after St. Francis resigned, was he provided

any material provisions by the Franciscan Order?

A The minister general following St. Francis

provided that he have Friars to go with him who were

secretaries; he was provided a place of residence.

The Friars collectively owned nothing. They had

lay people who owned their property for them and gave the

use of it to the Friars.

And he had the Poor Praying Sisters assigned to

cook his meals. It wasn't a very glorious existence, but

he did have people assigned to take care of him out of

reverence for the fact that he had been the founder.

Q Was he also provided a Church?

A He had the Church of San Damiano assigned for

his particular use.

Q Now, there has been discussion in this case

concerning the subject of corporate integrity; can you tell

me how is the typical Archdiocese of a Catholic Archdiocese

incorporated in the United States?

A If one examines, for example, the record of

incorporation of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles one would

find that the Archbishop of Los Angeles functions as a

corporation soul for the diocese. As the chief executive

officer of the Roman Catholic Church, by the corporate soul

is meant the sole possessor and administrator of all diocesan

properties, goods, and services in the Archdiocese of

Los Angeles.

That is a kind of direct immediate function of

4051

an Archbishop.

Q Within the corporation soul is there anybody else

who in a corporate sense as far as you are aware has any

status corporately?

A Bishops have committees of advisors, but who do

not have the power. The power resides in the bishop. All

the power resides in the bishop except the bishop serves at

the permission of the Pope in Rome. All bishops are appointed

by Rome.

Q Let me ask you about that.

Describe whether or not the Pope has any power

to affect the separate corporation that is incorporated such

as the Archdiocese of Los Angeles?

A This has happened historically.

If a bishop were found to be controvening faith

and doctrine and morals and bringing scandal to the Church

and his diocese or if he became entangled in an enormous

financial difficulty or some other kind of scandalous

activity, that bishop could be removed by the Pope in Rome

and someone put in his place to assume the function of

administrator for the diocese.

And this would be so even if the bishop

objected?

A That would be even if the bishop objected.

Q And even though the bishop is the sole

administrator and incorporator --

A In Roman Catholicism a bishop is the administrator

of his immediate diocese, but the Pope is like the pastor

4052

of all diocese; the real ultimate pastor of all diocese is

the papacy, the Pope.

Q And is this pursuant to ecclesiastical law that

this relationship --

A These provisions are contained in what is known

as the Corpus Juris Conic, C-o-r-p-u-s J-u-r-i-s C-o-n-i-c,

which means the body of the Canon Law,

And there are various sections of the body of

Canon Law that detail how bishops and archbishops are assigned

their powers at the behest of the papacy.

Q And if there is a vacancy in an archdiocese, who

is it that has the power to appoint a person to be the new

archbishop?

A Solely that perogative belongs solely to the

Pope.

Q So that is passed down ecclesiastically?

A Yes. That is what we call an ecclesiastical line

of authority as opposed to a corporate or incorporated

exercise of authority.

Q Is this relationship replicated in any way at

lower levels within the Catholic Church?

A Well, the pastor of a local parish is assigned

by his bishop; so it is exactly parallel here. But the

immediate pastor of all parishes is not really pastor serving

in that function. The immediate pastor is assumed to be the

bishop. And the local pastor is in the place of the bishop

himself.

4053

Q So under Roman Catholic eclesiastical law the

bishop has the power to appoint or remove pastors of local

churches?

A That is right.

Q Is that irrespective of any corporate

arrangements?

A That would be irrespective of any corporate

arrangements.

Q Now, does the Pope have the power to require

payment of moneys to the Vatican?

A Yes. Every diocese throughout the world,

but most especially the diocese in the United States since

they are the wealthiest diocese in the world, are assigned

what is know as a cathedraticum, and these are eclesiastical

taxes for the support of the Vatican itself and for the

mission of the church at large throughout the world,

particularly in the mission lands. There are various types

of taxes collected.

Once a year there is s collection that is

called Peter's Pence. Throughout the United States and

throughout the world that is assessed to all parishes and

all members of the faith, and that money is forwarded

directly to the Vatican for the support of the offices of

the Vatican and for various functions of the papacy.

There are also other types of taxes that are

assessed, particularly for the propagation of the faith

which is also administered through the Vatican.

Q And does the Vatican place weight on the need

4054

to raise money?

A Yes. I mean, people are in the Code of Canon

Law there are provisions assigning -- the way to state

that in common language would be to say if a bishop refused

to pay the universal church taxes, he would be in severe

trouble.

Q And this power of the Pope is also pursuant to

canon law, eclesiastical law?

A That is right. That is eclesiastical law.

Q And can the Pope require special collections

of moneys?

A Yes. There are many various types of special

collections that periodically become urgent like collections

for relief of various churches in poor countries. Those

can be assigned by the Pope.

Q And the Pope has this authority throughout the

world regardless of the corporate setup of the particular

Catholic church or arch diocese in the various countries?

A That is right.

Q Can the Pope pursuant to eclesiastical

law affect organization or administration of Catholic arch-

diocese or churches?

A The various organizational structures of the

church, they vary somewhat from country to country and they

also vary according to the relationship between church and

state in each country, but generally there are standardized

forms and those standardized forms are pursuant to the body

of Canon law, also known as the Code of Canon Law which

4055 - 56

is the code directly formulated and approved by the papacy

itself, and so that directly affects administration of

the church throughout the world.

Q And can the Pope affect the individuals who

are appointed to administrative posts within archdiocese?

A There are many complex ways that is effected.

The papacy, for example, must approve of certain types of

appointments to officers in an archdiocese such as the

appointment of a chancellor, the appointment of the chaplain

to nuns, the appointment of rectors of seminaries are all

types of appointments which nominations are made by bishops

but approval must also come from Rome.

Q And this is also pursuant to ecclesiastical

law?

A That is right.

Q Now, let me ask the question this way: Is

there such a thing called an Apostolic Delegate that can be

found in various countries?

A in the United States the Pope's personal

representative to the church in the United States, now

assuming a different function, he will become an official

diplomat recognized by the United States political

arrangement, it is called the Apostolic Delegate and in other

countries that person is called the Papal Nuncio. The word

"Nuncio" means messenger or announcer, and would be called

ambassador in secular language of the pope to a country

and to the church in that country.

Q And among the functions of the Apostolic Delegate

4057

Papal Nuncio, are their responsibilities to make determinations

for submission to the Pope as to whether the Pope should

intervene?

A That is right. Each year every diocese is

required to submit a report on the diocese and the Apostolic

Delegate also collects his own information about the

running of the church in the various diocese throughout the

United States and reports are made to Rome, and if problems

would exist, both fiscal and spiritual problems; that is

problems in terms of faith and morals and problems in terms

of financial arrangements, reports are made to Rome, and

if a case became severe, the papacy could and has intervened

with the appointment of Apostolic administrators.

4058

Q And if that does occur, does that person have

the authority under ecclesiastical law to assume all functions

within --

A If the Vatican saw fit, if the case were urgent

enough and the Vatican saw fit, that person could be appointed

total administrator of a diocese.

Q Does the Pope also have the power to send

missions into various archdiocese?

A Yes. In the United States now there is a special

papal commission that is examining all the educational

facilities of all seminaries for the training of priests

throughout the United States. This commission is going from

diocese to diocese throughout the United States compiling

a report which will be filed with the Vatican when they are

finished.

And the local churches are required under Canon

Law to cooperate in any way required?

A That is right.

Q By the way, does the Catholic Church have any

form of collecting information that it feels is important

for its own survival or benefit?

A Yes. Each diocese is part of a metropolitan

diocese; that is, ordinary bishops are under a metropolitan,

generally called an archbishopric; for example, Los Angeles

is the Metropolitan Diocese of the Bishopric in San Diego.

Q And the metropolitan -- each individual bishop

makes reports and each metropolitan makes reports on the

bishoprics within its domain and these reports are all sent

4059

in to Rome?

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, are we going to study the

Catholic Church? Is all of this before or after the

Pope resigned?

MR. LITT: Your Honor, this is all in the context of

putting in perspective the question of the relationship within

Scientology, which we'll get to, within ecclesiastical lines

and corporate integrity. Because there has been an issue

made of corporate integrity with respect to Scientology

which operates as a hierarchical religion just as does the

Catholic Church. And accordingly, this information, I think,

is clearly relevant to put in perspective the traditional

practices within religious movements of the relationship

between ecclesiastical law and corporate individuality.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, there is a simple answer to

that. And it is that civil authority with regard to issues

of inurement and maintenance of corporate integrity has

nothing to do with ecclesiastical law. And if we were to

spend the next week studying the potential analogs between

one religion and the Church of Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard,

it would be an exercise in frivolity.

The simple issue is whether or not Mr. Hubbard

under the civil laws of the United States violated those

civil laws with regard to his activities and conduct,

particularly with regard to financial arrangements of these

organizations. And he has already, in several tax years,

been found to have done that. And I have the decision here

with me. And the tax years from 1970 to 1980 are all now

4060

under review.

THE COURT: It seems to me that we are -- it may be

that the Catholic Church is a hierarchical organization.

And it way be that Hubbard's conception of Scientology is

also a hierarchical organization. But we have gone along

with this for quite some time now.

You'll have 10 minutes to wind up this business

on the Catholic Church and how it night relate to Scientology

organizationally.

MR. LITT: Thank you, Your Honor. I only have a bit

more on that.

4061

Q BY MR. LITT: Now, within various religions,

again let's use the Catholic church for starters, are

religious leaders provided various services for their own

use?

A Yes, as I said earlier, the paradigm of all

heirarchical religions is the Roman Catholic Church. Each

bishopric has personal property; mansion, limousines, servants,

housekeepers and other kinds of emollients for their

personal care.

The papacy itself has upwards thousands of

people that are directly attached to the papacy, including

the Swiss Guards who conduct both over and covert protection

of the Pope. Has grounds keepers for the Vatican, housekeepers

for the pope and for the papal apartments. There is a

whole religious order of nuns dedicted to that.

There is caretakers of the Vatican's portfolio

for investments which are made throughout the world. There

is grounds keepers for the summer residence of the Pope

which is at Grotto Ferrato.

Q Now, these residents that you are talking about,

are these solely for the use of the Pope?

A The Vatican -- there are papal apartments within

the Vatican. The Vatican is, in secular language, the

Vatican would be called the kingdom of the pope in secular

language. It is under his personal dominion and also the

official offices of the church are contained within the

Vatican.

Q And the Pope has provided a personal staff to

4062

take care of his personal living quarters?

A That is right.

Q And is he provided a personal staff to take

care of personal -- let me rephrase that.

Is he provided secretaries for personal use

as opposed to general church use?

A For both. He is provided secretaries for

both.

Q Is he provided personnel who handle his

personal banking and financial matters?

A Yes he is.

Q And this is not church moneys but his own

moneys?

A His own moneys.

Q Are there people responsible for his personal

public relations?

A Yes there are.

Q And these are assigned to promote the public

image of the Pope?

A That is right. Generally the Office of the

Papal Chamberlains they are called.

Q And all of these posts that you have described

that serve the Pope personally, who employs and pays them?

A The Church Universal. They are employed --

they are paid by the church. Their salaries come out of the

many taxes and donations that go to the Vatican.

Q And is it considered an honor to be able to

serve in such capacity?

4063

A Yes, it is. One would not turn down an office

to serve the Pope personally.

Q You have described the Catholic church and

how it operates. Aside from the strictly heirarchical form,

are there other religions that have analagous types of

heirarchies?

A The Anglican Church of England or the Church

of England. It has an archbishop with many bishoprics

under him throughout the world, and that also is a heirarch-

ical religion. It is different than Roman Catholicism in the

sense that the Crown of England is considered to be head of

the church in England. You did not have the separation of

church and state in England.

4064

The various orthodox varieties of orthodoxy

throughout the world also have hierarchical formations.

In the Far East, depending on the country, in

the Far East various Buddhist, Llamas in Tibet, originally

in Tibet organized under a Llama who is kind of like a Pope

for the Tibetan Buddhists and has many abbots and bishops

underneath him. And there are many varieties of Buddhist

organizations throughout the Far East. But they have in some

instances hierarchical definitions.

Q And does the Synod work in a somewhat similar

way?

A In the United States various Protestant

denominations are kind of in between the congregational and

the hierarchical; in some ways closer to the hierarchical

type of religions, particularly Lutheran Synods are organized

and run by what is known as a Senate which is kind of like

a collective corporate leadership, having a president who

functions in a more hierarchical than congregational way,

but not with the same types of powers that a Pope or, say,

a Llama has.

Q Within some of these Protestant denominations

that you are referring to does the Synod have the power to

decide appointments even though a local congregation may be

a separate legal entity?

A Generally there is a lot of variety in Protestant

denominations. But there are types where the congregation

has the sole responsibility and authority to appoint its

Pastor.

4065

There are other kinds where a local congregation

cannot appoint a Pastor without the concurrence of the Senate

leadership.

So where it is kind of a joint appointment --

Q There has been testimony in this case concerning

the question or the claim that certain persons while members

of Scientology were put under forms of restraint or

detention.

Are there examples in religions that you have

studied where there exists facilities where people are

required to go and to be in essence, I guess, detained?

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, in the Middle Ages the Catholic

Church was burning people at the stake. And it was done

pursuant to Canonical or Canon Law to burn people, including

as recently as probably the 1600's in this country in New

England; however, there is civil authority. And when people

do not want to be locked up and they get locked up, then I

would submit the difference between that and having a person

voluntarily go off and do penance is a significant thing.

And rather than wander into the various religious

practices of monks doing penance as opposed to people

believing they have to gone to work for a nuclear physicist

when they find in fact he was a con man and then getting

locked up when they try to leave is significantly a different

thing.

THE COURT: Obviously everything is relative. I assume

that any organization has certain powers of discipline.

Be that as it may. They still have to conform

4066

to the civil codes of the territory in which they are

functioning.

MR. LITT: We are simply trying to provide a context

for practices which have been placed in a certain perspective

which are quite traditional practices. We are simply trying

to establish that. It can be argued as to what weight to

give it.

THE COURT: Well, you can tell us about -- okay. Go

ahead.

MR. FLYNN: You can put a context on what Charles Manson

did as a religious practice.

THE COURT: Let's not get carried away, Mr. Flynn.

The lawyer, not the witness.

THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor.

MR. FLYNN: We both may have the same tendency, Your

Honor.

THE WITNESS: Could you repeat that question?

Q BY MR. LITT: Yes.

Are there instances of which you are aware as

part of people remaining within a religion that they are

required to put themselves under forms of restraint?

A There is a common practice that has developed

in this century fn the United States, particularly the

initiator of this type of process or form of discipline was

Cardinal George Mundalein of Chicago who was Cardinal of

Chicago from 1916 to 1939.

When he came into the Bishopric of Chicago he

found out there were many quite undisciplined priests of what

4067

was known at the time as wandering priests throughout the

diocese. And he found many pastors who were engaged in

sexual liaisons which does not sit too well in Roman Catholic

circles.

He found priests who were suffering from alcohol

problems and he found priests who were not conforming to what

the Catholic Church sees as the exemplary model that a priest

should follow.

4068

And he was one of the first bishops in the

United States to establish houses for the rehabilitation of

priests, and subsequent to that time the bishops throughout

the United States have established houses, the most famous

of which the House of the Paraclete in Jemez Springs,

New Mexico, which was founded initially to handle errant

priests for a variety of reasons, mostly for alcoholism

throughout the United States, and that was supported by

the bishops of the United States.

A priest, if he wanted to remain a priest,

would be sent to this house in which the discipline was

rather rigid and where the life was more penitential to

serve for a period of time in hopes that the person would

reform.

Q And so long as people remained a member of the

group or of the religion, were they free to leave without

permission?

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, I am going to object again.

All the evidence in this case relates to people when they

wanted to leave and tried to leave and were locked up.

MR. LITT: There is no evidence, but Mr. Armstrong

testified that he was imprisoned in the RPF, Your Honor.

MR. FLYNN: The state of the record at this point, the

witness has just testified if they wanted to remain a

priest. Nancy Dincalci testified as soon as she wanted to

leave, they had a guard put on her. Laurel Sullivan testified

as soon --

THE COURT: I don't know that we have had any discussion

4069

about priests. Of course, maybe the auditor, anybody that

is an auditor is a priest or minister within Scientology.

Maybe that analogy fits.

Let's just take a recess and come back at

1:30 and we will think about.

Why don't we try --

MR. LITT: I really don't have much more.

I am done with this subject and I have two or

three more areas. I expect another 15 minutes.

4070

LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; FRIDAY, JUNE 1, 1984; 1:30 P.M.

DEPARTMENT N0. 57 HON. PAUL G. BRECKENRIDGE, JR., JUDGE

---0---

THE COURT: We are back in session. Counsel are

present. The witness has retaken the stand.

State your name again for the record, sir. You

are still under oath.

THE WITNESS: My name is Frank K. Flinn.

FRANK K. FLINN,

the witness on the stand at the time of the recess, having

been previously duly sworn, resumed the stand and testified

further as follows:

THE COURT: You may continue, Mr. Litt.

MR. LITT: Thank you, Your Honor.

DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed)

BY MR. LITT:

Q Now, Mr. Flinn, you were describing this facility

maintained by the Paracletes; are there other religions that

have similar type facilities?

A Various religious groups maintain special types

of treatment centers for errant pastors for the rehabilitation

of these people. There would be places where people, if they

do want to remain in religious service of any kind, they'll

have to undergo the treatment or they may make the choice

of leaving completely. But if they do go to it, they have

4071

to undergo the discipline.

Q And in connection with matters like these and

other matters, are there various religions that maintain

their own files with respect to the activities of their staff

members?

A Most religious denominations in the United States

maintain annual reports on the status of the parishes and

the patterns and religious order members, annual typed

reports, that are kept in special archives.

The archdiocese or diocese of every bishopric

in the United States has a very special archives where files

are kept on both religious, on religious members of the

archdiocese, priests of the archdiocese and even in some

cases lay people of the archdiocese that contain very

confidential information. And those are kept under strict

supervision. They are kept in what was traditionally known

as the Cursor a locked portion of the archives.

Q And does this confidential information include

personal information?

A Yes, it does.

Q Now, you also were describing earlier concerning

the personal staff provided to the Pope; aside from the Pope

are other religious figures within Catholicism also given

personal staffs?

A Yes. The heads of most religious orders have

staff, both ecclesiastical work and, in some cases, for their

personal work.

Each bishop has a personal staff that takes care

4072

of his chancellery office. He may also be provided with

staff to take care of -- in some cases, bishops have personal

homes other than the official home provided by the archdiocese.

And they have secretaries and people to handle their personal

affairs.

4073

Q Now, you described the difference between

heirarchical and congregational religions in general.

Based upon your study of Scientology, how would

you characterize Scientology in relationship to that?

A Okay. My observation of Scientology --

the time I spent most studying Scientology was between about

1976 -- I began studying it in 1976-1977 and concentrated

it up to about 1981. So, I understand Scientology, I have

seen some information that it has changed structure since

that time, so my information dates from about 1979 principally,

and I would characterize the religion as a very heirarchical

based religion with lines of eclesiastical authority and

lines of organizational or administrative authority coming

down from above with various divisions and departments which

were answerable to higher divisions and departments, very

much in the same order of Ronan Catholicism.

Q You were describing some of your observations

of Scientology earlier. There is a term commonly used in

Scientology called standard tech. In your opinion, is that

a religious concept?

A When I first did interviews, the spiritual

biographical type interviews with meubers of Scientology,

my attempt to understand it, I kept running across, the

ordinary believers kept referring to the standardness of

the tech or standard tech, and 8s I investigated more about

that and inquired more about that, I came to realize that

standard tech to a Scientologist is the functional equivalent

of what infallibility is to a Roman Catholic. Infallibility

4074

is the Roman Catholic belief that the church and in particular

the magisterum of the church, the bishops in conjunction with

the Pope, cannot err in faith and doctrine and morals in the

long run.

It was also functionally equivalent to what,

particularly in fundamantalist protestant denominations is

called the inerrancy of acripwure or the belief that what the

scripture contains is the word of God and sill not lead you

astray.

Q And you had the opportunity to investigate the

role of auditing in Scientology; is that correct?

A Yes, I have. There are many, many grades and

divisions, and it is hard to retain all those grades and

divisions, but I have observed people undergoing auditing,

not in the room, but I have watched them through windows and

I have interviewed people about what they got out of the

auditing process what types of experiences they were able to

relate about that process and what it meant to them.

Q And from a religious point of view, how

would you characterize the role of auditing in Scientology?

A The closest analogy -- well there is two

types of analogies to the auditing process.

Within your traditional religions such as

Roman Catholicism or Greek Orthodoxy or even Anglican, you

have a type of spiritual practice known as spiritual counseling

and particularly in the Roman Catholic example. There were

examples as with St. Bonaventure that there were various

levels and stages of spiritual enlightenment, and the auditing

4075

process shares many features in common with this gradated

level of enlightenment.

It also shares certain aspects end features

with what is traditionally known as confessional, and that

is that the revelation of one's spiritual state of soul,

including confession of sins and doubts and anxieties in what

is known as a sacramental confession, and the auditing

process had an aspect of that, too.

4076

Q And would you characterize from a religious point

of view auditing as a sacramental practice within

Scientology?

A I would say that auditing is the principal chief

sacramental practice within Scientology.

In traditional Catholicism the Eucharist would

be called central sacrament.

I would say that auditing for the Scientologist

is the equivalent of what Eucharist would be for a Catholic

Christian.

Q Now, let one turn to another topic.

As a preliminary, the interviews that you

conducted that you talked about earlier this morning when

you were testifying, how did those interviews come about and

how were they arranged?

A At one time I started interviewing various types

of new religious movements, including traditional ones,

charismatics. This was mostly the kind of research that

revolved in relationship to the kinds of courses I was

teaching. And I interviewed some Hare Krisnas. I interviewed

some charismatic Catholics. I interviewed Scientologists

along with other types of people.

The question I was interested in was why young

adults in general were joining new religious movements. And

I inquired from various Churches of Scientology whether they

would mind if I just came in and interviewed people.

I also set a condition that I would pick the

person and kind of at random. And I would wander around and

4077

see someone and say, "Would you mind doing an interview?"

And I would sit down with them to do this alone,

what I would call spiritual biography-type interview.

Q Are you familiar with the doctrine and writings

in the course of Scientology relating to the notion of Fair

Game?

A I have heard about Fair Game mostly in terms of

controversy surrounding Scientology.

When I did my interviews with people who were

obviously inside the religious movement, at the time I

interviewed them, the question of Fair Game was not a

particularly important -- it did not spontaneously come up

in the interviews. It only came up in terms of controversy

surrounding the Church of Scientology.

Q In the course of your interviews, did you inquire

of the people that you interviewed as to if they had heard

of the term and, if so, what they thought it meant?

A I did. Not for all of the interviews, but later

on when the question of Fair Game or the terminology of Fair

Game became a rather controversial issue, I began to ask

people. And this I did a lot in terms of the informal

inquiries when I had a chance upon meeting a Scientologist

to ask him, "What does Fair Game mean to you?"

And generally, the response --

MR. FLYNN: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Well, only as it may relate to some opinion

he has. He has sampled a few people, I assume it is for

the purpose of some opinion that he has; otherwise, it is

4078

just hearsay.

MR. LITT: Thank you, Your Honor.

Q Go on.

A -- and the response I got -- and I subsequently

have investigated or investigated the kinds of policy

statements given with Fair Game -- was pretty much in line

with what those policy statements were.

Q Did you form any opinion as to what the general

understanding of this doctrine or this notion to the extent

people were aware of it meant among the Scientologists you

interviewed?

A Well, functionally, I think Fair Game was

something quite similar to -- you must understand that the

notion of Fair Game evolved within the Church of

Scientology.

I think the first policy statement on it dates

from about 1956. And then there was a subsequent statement

to the effect that one would lose the protection of the

disciplines and codes of Scientology and the rights of

Scientology. That is a fairly close quote as far as I can

recall.

And later on the Fair Game was canceled. I think

it was in 1968. And subsequent to that the notion of Fair

Game -- it also included some rather stringent terminology,

like one could lie to a suppressive person or one could trick

one.

But when I interviewed Scientologists, their

understanding of Fair Game was someone who had turned against

4079

Scientology or was trying to damage Scientology and was

simply not allowed the protections and services of

Scientology.

It was quite functionally equivalent to other

types of religious exclusions such as, for example,

abomination of idolators in the Old Testament; excommunication

of Christians in the New Testament; Interdict which is a

particular form of Catholic penalty and in which people are

removed from all possibility of seeing the sacrament or

benefits of the Church services.

4080

And it was most similar to the type of

eclesiastical exclusion that you found among the three groups

such as the Mennonites and the Amish, and that is known

as banning or shunning where the party who was put under

the ban who is shunned, and this still goes on today, was

refused all social intercourse with members of the faith,

including members of one's own family. In some cases that

included the necessity of a spouse not having intercourse

with the other spouse.

Q Is the notion of fair game something that is,

as you have discussed it, something that has appeared in

various forms throughout the history of religion?

A Well I think that one can refer to the Book of

Leviticus in Chapter 26, if I recall correctly. I know

it is in 26 or 27, and the book of Deuteronomy, Chapter 13;

one can look at First Corinthians, St. Paul's epistle to the

Corinthians; First Corinthians, 1:5, to all kinds of other

religious texts where people -- in the Leviticus example,

idolators and those who had lost faith in the community were

to be excluded from the camp of the Israelites and stoned

to death. That ranged up to St. Paul's exclusion of a

religious member from all the services and benefits of

the community.

So, this kind of phenomenon is not peculiar

to Scientology. It seems to be a typical religious

phenomenon for the purpose of protecting the faith and

doctrine and practices of the religious group.

Q Now, showing you exhibit RR, is this the

4081

particular policy letter that you were referring to that

uses some of this language that you were talking about?

A Yes. Do you want me to read this?

Q No, that's okay.

A Yes, the fair game, that is pretty standard

type of language.

Q Now, in your experience is dramatic or

strong language frequently used for symbolic purposes or in

order to emphasize a point in religious texts.

A Religious language, particularly language

dealing with penalties and religious language in general

tends to be what an outside observer would say is either

metaphoric or hyperbolic or highly exaggerated, intensive,

loaded type language. It requires interpretation.

For example, in Matthew Chapter 5 following the

Sermon on the Mount, Jesus uses language like, "If thy

eye offends thee, pluck it out."

Now, one does not normally go down the street

seeing Christians plucking eyes out of their heads, and so

it is obvious that that type of language is within the

faith community understood in a much more metaphoric or

symbolic way than any kind of literal physical kind of

action. It is really intended to emphasize or motivate the

faith community toward having purity of intention, total

personal integrity, conformity of the outward actions with

the inward spirit.

So, it is to be interpreted and understood

in that kind of way.

4082

Q Do you have any other examples of particular

textual reference similar to the ones yon have just given

us? So one can point to all kinds of religious language.

I gave you some kind of negative examples with regard to

taboos and prohibitions or the handling of ex-members or

apostates or idolators or those who have lost the faith.

There is language like the type of language you

find in the Prophet Isiah in Chapter 8 who speaks about,

talking about the Kingdom of God as if it were like a lion

lying down with a lamb or where the whole nature of the

universe were entirely in peace. This is highly metaphoric,

symbolic type language.

Q Now, let me go back for a moment. From your

study of the subject, is it characteristic of religious

movements that in the early phase, they will use harsh or

stringent language to define certain things that evolve over

time?

A Almost all religious movements in their very

early phase tend to be harsh, stringent, strict and later on

to evolve a kind of case law to handle problematic cases,

adn they tend to go from being stringent to more lenient.

A very good example of that would be the

development within the early Christian community in Acts

like if I recall correctly, it is chapter 5, where

St. Peter -- Ananias and Sapphis are brought to St. Peter,

and they fail to give all their goods to the community.

They seem to have a very communal way of life.

4083

"St. Peter called down" -- they get in highly

metaphoric language -- "called down the fire of the

Holy Spirit upon them. And Ananias and Sapphia

wound up dead."

When you compare that with St. Paul's way and

St. Paul later on in Second Corinthians handling -- just

simply excluding someone from the communications, you see

that within Judaism too itself where it went from stoning

people to sitting Shiva on the faithless member of the

faithless member of the community.

Q Sitting Shiva is a procedure in Judaism which

applies generally to people when they die?

A Its primary meaning deals with someone who passes

into the beyond, But when -- in Orthodox Judaism when an

offspring or relative or spouse or any member of the community

loses his faith or joins another faith or joins an opposing

faith, the members of the family sit Shiva on this person

as if they were dead. And they'll so act toward that person

as if they were no longer alive.

In strict Orthodox sects that means not

recognizing them if they walk down the street.

Q Now, you mentioned that religious language tends

to be very image oriented; can you elaborate on that and also

explain what function that plays within a religious

movement?

A Well, scholars in general noticed that religion

tries to talk about an extraordinary type of person, namely,

the experience of the supernatural or divine or the ultimate

4084

by using ordinary human language. But it uses ordinary human

language in a very kind of highly charged symbolic way. And

it is very difficult in religion to separate what an outsider

would call -- make a distinction, an outside distinction

called fact from fiction.

One can give the example of Jesus.

We know from some early writing in Josephus that

Jesus was, indeed, a historical figure.

We know that Jesus, from a strictly factual point of view,

that he seemed to have preached in Galilee at a

certain time, more or less around 30 A.D.

We also know that from a factual point of view

that Jesus died or was crucified under Roman auspices.

The faith community, obviously, was interested

not simply in those bare facts, but in the meaning of Jesus'

life.

So when you look at the expression of what Jesus

meant to the early Church, then you look at the gospels.

And in those gospels they seem to go beyond fact. Facts are

colored in particular ways and the meaning of his life and

all kinds of narratives.

Q Before we get into that, let me go back for a

moment.

This colorful language, without talking for a

moment on the subject of hagiography, are there other examples

that you can point to sort of -- the use of this sort of

imagery which is not really factual, but plays a certain

role?

4085

A Well, the religious experience is an experience

of otherness about one's kind of life. And in the Bible you

have many, many examples of this type.

I gave the example of Isaih talking about the

Kingdom of God as a lion lying down with the lamb. And that

is not only beyond the facts, I guess a naturalist would say

that is against the facts or counter the facts.

4086

You find if you look at Exodus Chapter 15,

for example, which is a very Israelite poem generally known

as "The Song of Moses" dating from around 1,000 to 1200 B.C.

In this poem ---- it is a very poetic poem, but it is a

description of the destruction -- it is describing the

Israelites' exodus out of Egypt, and in that description

Pharoah and his chariots get destroyed, and even though the

language is poetic and metaphoric in the poem, really

it is a description of a storm coming down, kind of an

ordinary storm it looks like coming and capturing the

Pharoah and his armies and his chariots, kind of a flashflood-

like scene.

There is another version to the same event,

and this seams to be common to religious phenomenon. There

are many versions to the same event, like there are four

gospels. There are two stories of the Exodus, and that is

in Exodus Chapter l4, and this is the Exodus of the movie

version, I'd like to point out, where you don't have a

description of the storm, but you have a description of

Moses walking out, dividing the waters in two walls and the

Israelites with the cloud, the pillar of fire and the cloud

before and after them walking through, and then the chariots

of the Pharoah following after then. The Israelites escaping

through, and then the water coning together and swallowing

up the Pharoah and the chariots, a very magical -- not

magical, but miraculous type of description.

Religious language seems to thrive on this

highly descriptive, beyond the ordinary type.

4087

Q And what role does this highly descriptive

type of language that you have been talking about play within

a religious movement for the believers?

A I think it serves the function of building

up the faith of the commusaity and of intensifying that

faith, of sustaining that faith and of giving it cohesiveness.

Seems when one compares religions around the world --

THE COURT: Is this all based upon -- are we talking

about the fair game doctrine? Is that what you are getting

to?

MR. LITT: No, I was laying a foundation for a

discussion of hagiography.

THE COURT: Okay.

THE WITNESS: This language serves the community

more then it serves quote an objective description of the

facts. Faith is obviously based on real experiences, among

which are included facts, but faith cannot be reduced to

simply a mere series of set of facts and events, dates.

Occurrences tend to be colored with this very highly

poetic language.

Q How, can you give me a general description of

the types of characteristics which are traditionally portrayed

for religious founders within religious movements?

A The types of characteristics --

4088

THE WITNESS: In general, charismatic-type leaders,

I would, say, are generally described as having extraordinary

powers beyond the normal powers.

The mere fact that they seem to be able to

gather large and committed followings seems to be related

to these kinds of attributions of extraordinary power.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, is the witness now talking

about the claims of the charismatic leader, him or herself,

Your Honor, or what the Los Angeles Times said about it?

THE COURT: You can cross-examine about this.

MR. LITT: Thank you, Your Honor.

THE WITNESS: These types of leaders tend to get

attributed with powers of clairvoyance, of being able to

see into the souls of people.

They tend to get attributed with having a

vision into the ultimate meaning of life, what the meaning

of existence is all about. They get attributed with the

quality or ability to, in some cases, perform miracles

and healings; in some cases, like the Buddha to ascend to

various levels of transmigrate; assume various levels of

heavens and transmigrate into other animals or other beings.

In some cases the saints of the Catholic

Church have been attributed to have the ability to have

bilocations; that is, to appear in two geographically

different places at the same time.

In some cases these leaders tend to get

attributed to have seen God, whether face to face or the

other way.

4089

In some cases they are attributed to have

visons of angels or other devine kinds of beings.

This is common throughout all religions,

that the founder is always given more powers than the

ordinary believer, more ability in extraordinary fashion.

Q And does the term "hagiography" relate to

this phenomenon that you have been describing?

A The term "hagioqraphy" means simply the holy

writing. It is a Greek-based word. And it is a term

generally used to describe the stories of the lives or

the biographies of saints and holy men in general. And

all religious writings contain some elements of hagiography.

Q Now, you were talking a little bit ago

about some of the known historical facts concerning Jesus;

did there develop at various times biographical elaborations

on these facts?

A Well, I think that the bare historical facts

about Jesus is that historically, factually, we know Jesus

lived from the various stories even outside the New

Testament; that he preached; that he was some kind of

religious leader in Israel and that he got crucified.

Those are the bare facts.

It is obvious that the early Christian

community was interested in a lot more than that because

in the New Testament we find --

THE COURT: Haven't we been through this before?

MR. LITT: Not this part, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Yes, we have.

4090

Let's try to get questions and short answers,

Mr. Litt.

Q BY MR. LTTT: Were there descriptions of

Jesus' life later that was added to known facts and that

also contradicted each other?

A For example, in the Gospel of John, Jesus

is described as going up to Jerusalem on three different

occasions. And the other three qospels, Matthew, Mark, and

Luke, Jesus is described as going up to Jerusalem only once.

And here we have got facts that don't agree with one another

or various versions of the facts.

The Gospel of Mark begins with Jesus doinq his

preaching in Galilee.

The Gospel of Matthew and Luke take Jesus

back to his infancy. Both Matthew and Luke have infancy

narratives.

The gospels expand, reaching for the infancy

narratives and for what the Christians call resurrection

kinds of stories. They are vastly amplified. And they,

obviously, go beyond the facts.

To a nonbeliever this type of elaboration

would be fiction, including such notions as the virgin

birth of Jesus; in other words, the Christian belief that

Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, conceived of Mary

through the power of the Holy Spirit and not by the means

or ways known to most of us.

Those would be hiqhly amplified colorations

or elaborations of the original facts of Jesus' life.

4091

Q And has this phenomenon that you have

described referred with respect to other religious

movements or religious figures?

A One can say very similar things about the

recounting of the events surrounding the life of Moses;

for example, his bringing mana for the people of Israel;

his striking a stone and having water flowing out of it.

One can point to stories about Buddha.

One can point to stories about many of the

lives of the saints where you have this very highly

colorful metaphoric elaboration of events.

Q Now, have you been able to determine whether

or not this process of hagiography plays any role within

a religious movement for the people who are followers of

the religious movement?

A I think that hagiography serves as a type of

-- it bolsters the faith of the community; it gives expression

to this faith of the community and it serves as symbols of

hope, motivation for the life of the community.

4092

Q Now, in the course of your investigation into

Scientology and the interviews that you conducted, did you

have discussions with people concerning their view of

L. Ron Hubbard?

A When I did my interviews with members of

Scientology, I always asked them how people saw L. Ron Hubbard,

and everyone called L. Ron Hubbard "My friend," and I would

put that "friend" capital F. It was more than just --

more than just a casual acquaintance type of thing.

Other people used the language as if he was

like the ultimate researcher. They said, they talked about

his research into ultimate things. There was this kind of

reverence toward the religious founder that I saw that would

lead to this kind of hagiographizing of his life.

Q And were you able to reach a conclusion about

the general conception about Mr. Hubbard's background that

people within Scientology had?

THE COURT: I don't know whether he is qualified to

give an answer on that. At some time there may have been

up to five million members. He talked to a handful, I

suppose, and we don't know what their motivations were or

what their purposes were.

You can express an opinion upon the people

that he questioned and his reaction to it, but I think that

is about where it ends.

Q BY MR. LITT: Were you able to reach a

generalized conclusion based upon the interviews that you

were able to do as to how those individuals viewed Mr. Hubbard's

4093

background?

A The type of information that came across in

those spiritual autobiographical interviews was that I would

ask people about well, how do you see L. Ron Hubbard and

what do you know about L. Ron Hubbard, and the awareness of

the real historical data of his past life didn't seem to be

that great nor that much interest to them.

In general, it was a vision that he had had

some contact with the Blackfoot Indians when he was young

and that he had talked to spiritual leaders in the Far East

at one time. That he had in some way studied nuclear

physics. That he had been an explorer in various parts of

the earth. That he had a particular deep insight into

reality kind of in general.

My opinion about what they believed is that I

thought this was simply typical hagiographizing of the life

of the founder going on.

Q Did the phenomenon of the existence of

hagiography indicate to you about whether or not Scientology

was a religious movement?

A Well as I said before, I did these interviews,

I didn't know exactly what Scientology was, but this phenomenon

of hagiographizing or hagiography was one of the indicators

to me that we have something going on here that is more than

simply some kind of therapy or mind cure type group, but really

something that was very typical of religions.

Q Based upon your study of religions, are there

phenomena that occur when people lose their faith from

4094

religion? Are there certain characteristics how that

unfolds?

A Well, just as within the religious community,

you have what I would call the phenomenon hagiographizing

or hagiography; when someone loses their faith, you

have the counter phenomena which may be described, I guess, as

anti-hagiography. As the former kind of amplified or colored

the powers, qualities, attributes of the religious founder,

so the anti-hagiography would tend to denigrate or put down

to the same but opposite degree the qualities of the

religious group or the founder.

Thee are many examples of this, particularly

among Roman Catholics. There is a very famous example of the

late 19th Century called "The Awful Revelation of Maria Monk"

about a woman who was en alleged member of the nunnery in

Quebec who escaped from it and it is from that that developed

all true details about the goings on between priests and

nuns that became the source of intensive anti-Catholicism

in the early part of this century. More recently you had

writings like "I left over the wall" which tended to put

down one's former existence in a way, as I would interpret

it, as to justify what one is presently doing.

4095

Q Now, in the interviews that you conducted,

were you able to reach any conclusions -- referring now

to the interviews with Scientologists -- about the factors

that motivated -- could you generalize on the factors that

motivated those people to come into Scientology?

A One of the questions I put to the -- my

original interviewees plus the 100 or so people I have

been able to inquire more informally later on, was that

they -- one of the things that came up in the autobiographies,

I asked then always about what types of religious movements

had you belonged to before you became a Scientoloqist.

There was a great variety of backgrounds from which one

came to Scientology or Unification or Hard Krisna or

any other type of religious groups. And so much so that

one could call that a generation of seekers. There has

been quite a bit written about this generation of seekers

today.

I was amazed by the number of serious

religious paths people have tried.

They had tried traditional religions; some

had been in UFO-type cults: some had been in transcendental

meditation; some had been in as much as seven different

religious-type paths, seeking for what they wanted until

they found and settled on Scientology.

I'm sure that among those, people will go on to

other things too.

Q Are you able to generalize about what it was

about Scientoloqy that made people feel like this was the

4096

path for them?

A I think Scientologists always talked about

the tech, the tech which allowed them, in this language,

to get out of a state of being unclear or preciear and to

gain what they called clear or being, quote, unquote,

operating thetans over matter, energy, time and space

and what they conceived to be ultimate reality. And that

seemed to satisfy them.

Q And based upon your general study of the

subject of religion and on the subject of Scientology do

you have an opinion as to whether or not L. Ron Hubbard is

a genuine religious leader?

A Well, obviously, L. Ron Hubbard has been able

to attract a considerable following. He has also -- also

seems to have some kind of teaching that implies perception

about what the ultimate meaning of life is and the place of

one's role on this earth.

He seems to have all the characteristics

and qualities that have been generally attributed to what

other people -- what myself and other scholars call

charismatic religious figures or religious geniuses. To

the members, I am sure he is a genius.

MR. LITT: Thank you.

I have no further questions.

THE COURT: You may cross-examine, Mr. Flynn.

MR. FLYNN: Thank you, Your Honor.

4097

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. FLYNN:

Q Mr. Flinn, did I understand you correctly that

you have reached an opinion or a conclusion that the

Fair Game Doctrine is just metaphorical language?

A I think that the way --

Q Can you answer that yes or no, sir?

A Do I understand that I said it was just

metaphorical language?

Q Right.

A No.

Q Which means it is more than metaphorical

language?

A Yes.

Q Now, scripture of a religious type is

something that people who follow or adhere to that

religion follow or obey; is that correct?

A It depends on the religion.

Different kinds of religions have different

attitudes and relationships to their scriptures.

Q Let's take Scientology scripture, the Fair

Game Doctrine; did you conclude that that was scripture?

A I wouldn't call this the totality of

Scientology of scripture.

Q Can you answer my question yes or no? Can

you conclude that that was scripture?

MR. LITT: If the witness wants to explain, he

should be entitled to explain, Your Honor.

4098

THE COURT: I recall Mr. Harris using that same

technique when he was questioning quite a few times.

If one can use it, the other can use it.

If you can answer yes or no, answer it. If

you can't, you may so state.

THE WITNESS: Could you repeat your question, please?

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Is the Fair Game Doctrine

Scientology scripture?

A It is part of the scripture.

Q And as scripture is it a religious writing, in

your opinion, that is intended to be obeyed?

A Yes, but I would qualify that in saying you

would have to -- I would have to ask you what part of the

Fair Game.

There was, obviously, an evolution in Fair

Game Doctrine.

Q Let's take the word "sue."

A What time are you talking about?

Q Let's take the year 1982 to the year 1984

and the word "sue," s-u-e; do you know what that word

means?

A Does that mean -- are you referring to a

proper name, or a common noun?

Q Have you read the Fair Game Doctrine?

A Yes.

Q Do you have it in front of you there?

A This is not -- I have referred to several

documents dating from 1965.

4099

I have read documents dating from 1965 to

1980, the ones where I saw Fair Game mentioned.

Q We can't bring all the scripture in, Mr. Flinn;

let's deal with the one in front of you.

We agree it is scripture; don't we?

A It is part of the scripture for Scientology.

It is not all of the scripture for Scientology.

Q Part of the scripture; as I understand, that

is language of a metaphorical type?

A Oh, I think that this is language that is

really to attempt to exclude a member from the religious

community and, hence, can be highly charged. It is that

kind of language that we find both Moses using in the

Old Testament and Jesus using in the New Testament.

4100

Q Well, is it the type of language which is

built up to intensify the faith of the community? I think

that is how you put it.

A There is also a question in my mind --

Q Can you answer that, Mr. Flinn?

MR. LITT: Your Honor, could Mr. Flinn --

THE COURT: No he just makes a speech every time he

gets a chance and doesn't answer the question. I don't have

any quarrel with the individual. I find this with many

experts that come into court.

Counsel has a right to ask a question if he

can get an answer. Let's try to confine ourselves, sir,

to the question and try to answer it.

THE WITNESS: There is an ambiguity in this as far as

I am concerned.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Did you testify on direct

examination that it is the type of metaphorical language

that is set forth in that scripture that is designed to

build up and intensify the faith of the community?

A This kind of language is very normal and

very commonly used by religious groups in their early phases

in order to tensify the unity, integrity, the purity of

doctrine of the group; where all outsiders or threats to the

religion are perceived as inimical, diabolical, satanic,

threatening, and very highly charged, intensive language is

used about the outside in general with these types of

movements when they begin. It is a very common historical

phenomena.

4101

Q I take it the answer is yes?

A Yes.

Q Now, when it is intensifying the faith of the

community with regard to that scripture, is it intensifying

the community to sue people?

A I mould need some clarification here. Is

it your understanding that this use of the language of

"injured or sued or tricked or lied to or destroyed"; does

this refer to in your understanding, does this language refer

to what a Scientoligist is to do to an ex-member on the

outside or to do about a member on the inside?

Q Well, you are the expert, Mr. Flinn. What is

your understanding?

A I think historically that there seems to have

been misapplications there. There were misapplications

always in the history of religion of this type of language,

and hence this leads to a modification of the language.

Q What does "misapplication" mean?

A It would be things like defaming the character

of somebody on the outside.

Q Do you mean when you said mispplication that

it was intended to be metaphorical but someone actually went

out and did it?

A There is many instances throughout history --

Q Can you answer that yes or no?

A Yes, somebody may have gone out and done it.

Historically in various religious groups that does happen.

Q But in your opinion in this religious

4102

group it was intended to be metaphorical; is that your

testimony?

A I think that it is intended to be within

the group literally in the sense of excluding the members

from the privileges of church benefits. It is very much

like the language used in interdict in Roman Catholicism.

Q Does it mean you can sue them in the church

but you can't sue them in a civil court; is that your opinion?

A I have not determined whether this kind of

text in the one example you gave me here refers to people

using it on the outside or the inside.

Q Didn't you testify that you have studied the

fair game doctrine as the metaphorical language of a

religious type?

A It wasn't simply only metaphorical. What I

am saying is one cannot separate the factual or literal from the

metaphorical.

THE COURT: Well, how do you know what Mr. Hubbard

meant when he wrote that, whether he meant it to be literal

or meant it to be metaphorical? Have you asked him?

THE WITNESS: Looking at the terms of the evolution

of the teaching in the writings of Scientology is that it is

obvious that the fair game doctrine was officially discontinued

in 1968 because it probably did lead to abuses. Now, I have

heard about abuses, but I have no first-hand knowledge of

abuses.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: so you didn't go out and do any

studying of any first-hand knowledge victims of the fair

4103

game doctrine; did you, Mr. Flinn?

A I have talked to some ex-members of Scientology,

and I have tried to interview people who have left Scientology

and are hostile to Scientology, and they very frequently

will not give interviews. In fact, all of my responses

have been that they will not do interviews.

Q Well, have you tried to meet people who

were alleged victims of that policy who were never

Scientologists?

A I have not interviewed people like that at

all.

Q You don't know anything about any of those

people?

A I haven't met any of those people.

Q So when you were doing your study to find out

whether it was metaphorical, you didn't try to find out

whether there were victims out there in the real world who

had been sued, for example?

A I knew there had been suits against people

for defaming Scientology.

Q What about operations to get them put in

mental institutions or jail; did you ever interview an author

who was indicted by a New York Grand Jury on a frameup

by the Guardian's office?

MR. LITT: Objection; assumes facts not in evidence.

THE COURT: I will sustain the objection

to the form of the question.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Well, Mr. Flinn, when you were

4104

doing all of your research into Scientology scripture,

did you make an effort to find a person named Paulette Cooper?

A I knew about Paulette Cooper. No I did not

make an effort to find Paulette Cooper.

Q Now, do you know whether or not there are any

victims in the real world who have been lied to, sued,

cheated, or destroyed on the instructions of Mr. Hubbard?

A I have met, interviewed two people who were

affected with Scientolocy that I have been able to have

informal interviews with but not on the instructions of

Mr. Hubbard.

Q And these two people, what are their names?

A I won't give out personal names. They are two

people in St. Louis that I have interviewed.

Q One of them wasn't Ann Rosenbloom who had

drugs put in one of her drinks; was it?

MR. LITT: Objection; assumes facts not in evidence,

Your Honor. It is improper.

THE COURT: Well it is a compound question; assumes

a fact not in evidence.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Do you know an Ann Rosenbloom who

used to live in St. Louis?

A No, I do not know an Ann Rosenbloom.

Q So you have interviewed two disaffected

Scientologists whose names you won't give out; is that

correct?

A I try not to give out personal names.

Q Let me ask you this: Was the fair game

doctrine metaphorical to them?

4105

A I interviewed one of these parties who was

particularly -- it was a male, age 26 at the time I

interviewed them -- he felt that information had been

used against them and that he was being harassed and

pursued by Scientology. When I further inquired of him

how was he being harassed, he said he received a number

of phone calls trying to get him to come back and get quote,

unquote on lines as a Scientologist.

Q Did you find out whether or not his preclear

folder had been culled, Mr. Flinn?

A I asked him specifically, "Did you find any

misuse of your data?" And he said, "No." This person

said no.

Q He had no knowledge; is that correct?

A He had no knowledge.

Q Have you looked at any of the documents that

were seized by the Federal Bureau of Investigation?

A No I haven't seen those. I don't know. Are

these documents seized by the Federal -- I don't know

what they are.

Q Now, the word "sue" you have reached the

conclusion in the fair game doctrine that that was

religious scripture of a metaphorical types is that correct?

A I think that the context --

4106

Q Can you answer my question yes or no, Mr. Flinn?

A In my state -- in the type of material where

I have seen Fair Game Doctrine described in their

ecclesiastiaal language, Fair Game is designed as being

deprived of the codes, the protection of the codes.

Q Can you answer my question yes or no, Mr. Flinn?

A Not according to this definition of Fair Game

because you would have to define for me exactly what you

mean by Fair Game.

Q You can't answer whether or not the word "sue"

standing by itself is a metaphorical term which does not

really mean what it says; is that correct? You can't

answer that yes or no?

A It could mean sue in the church. It could

mean sue in the civil courts. I don't know what it means

in this context.

Q You don't know what it means; is that your

testimony?

A This is one document taken out of context. I

can't answer questions about little bits of information

taken out of context.

I can discuss about the evolution of the

teaching of Fair Game.

Q Let me show you lists of 100 or so suits

that have been brought against people by the Church of

Scientology, a computer printout; have you ever seen that

before?

MR. LITT: Your Honor, objection. This is irrelevant.

4107

THE COURT: It is cross-examination.

Overruled.

Whether this is metaphorical or something

that happens in part --

MR. LITT: My point is a list of suits does not have

any rational relationship to that question one way or the

other without knowing the merits of the lawsuits.

THE COURT: It is like saying somebody engages in

hagiography, ergo, it is a religion. It is probably no

different from that type of syllogism.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Have you seen any of the lists

of suits that the church has brought against people?

A This is a list of suits that the Church of

Scientology has brought against other people, or other

people against Scientology?

Q Have you seen any lists of suits, Mr. Flinn,

that the organization has brought against people?

A No. I have not seen lists of suits.

Q Have you interviewed any people who have been

sued by this organisation?

A No, not yet. No, I have not.

Q So to those people you don't know whether

it is metaphorical or real?

A There can be a suit for civil reasons if there

is civil damages.

Q Have you ever been sued?

A No, I have not.

Q Would it be metaphorical to you if a process

4108

server came up and served with a suit and you had to hire

a lawyer and pay him $100,000 to defend you? Would that

be metaphorical to you?

A No, it would not.

Q Did you read the book "Napping" by Conway and

Siegleman?

A I have read parts of the book Napping and

also the article Napping that appeared in a journal.

Q In that book, they wrote something about the

metaphorical scriptures of the Church of Scientology; didn't

they?

A They didn't use the term "metaphorical"

throughout their article.

Q Do you know what happened to them?

A No, I don't know.

Q Do you know whether they got sued?

A No, I do not know that they got sued.

Q Do you know how much they paid for lawyers

to defend themselves?

MR. LITT: Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence.

THE COURT: He obviously wouldn't know if he didn't

know they were sued.

I'll sustain the objection.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: You have looked at no Washington

documents, is that correct, documents seized by the Federal

Bureau of Investigation?

MR. LITT: Objection. Asked and answered.

THE COURT: To your knowledge have you ever seen any?

4109

THE WITNESS: I don't have access to the files of

the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

THE COURT: Apparently a lot of other people have

some of them.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: When you have been learning

about Scientology, Mr. Flinn, Scientology gave you some

of their scriptures?

A No. I inquired -- I requested the things

that I wanted.

Q What did you want?

A I wanted to look at all their major writings.

I was interested primarily in their doctrine

and their teaching. I have not done any thorough

investigation of the ongoing day-to-day affair practices

over a long period of time of the Church of Scientology.

Q You just did a generalized review of some

of their doctrine?

A My principal interest in Scientology arose

out of my interest of why young adults were becoming

adherents to, members of what looked like a new face in

our time.

4110

Q Did your interest also relate as you have

testified here in the courtroom whether or not this strong,

intensifying type language was actually being followed by

Scientology agents?

A No, it didn't.

Q Well, when you requested the types of documents,

did you request any Guardian's office documents?

A Did I request Guardian's --

Q -- office documents?

A I think I saw -- for example, when the question

about fair game came up, I was given those types of

documents. I said, "Can I get access to questions dealing

with fair game?" And I got a series of documents that

dealt with the tradition of fair game.

Q What did you get.

A A series of policy statements, HCO policy

statements which are pretty standardly available, as I

understand. They are fairly public.

Q Did you ask for something that was not pretty

standardly available such as operations and targets and

programs to destroy people?

A No, I didn't ask for that kind of information.

Q Would that have assisted you in determining

whether or not the fair game doctrine was metaphorical or

real?

A Well I didn't say that the fair game --

I can't make the assumption that the fair game doctrine

was metaphorical or real.

4111

Q Oh, you can't.

You didn't testify on direct examination that

it was metaphorical?

A That this type of language used about tricking

people, even injuring people, even bringing harm to people

is very characteristic of religious movements, particularly

sectarian movements their early phases out of which abuses

do arise and over time that type of language tends to get

mitigated and moderated because of the abuses which do occur.

That is a very common phenomenon with sectarian religions.

Q What does the word "metaphor" mean to you?

A Metaphor, I defined it earlier, is a way of

using language in a highly charged way to intensify the

loyalty and commitment of a religious community.

Q What does the word hagiography mean to you?

A It means writings, biographies of holy people,

saints, religious founders.

Q Did I understand you to mean when you were

talking about hagiography that it was an embellishment, an

exaggeration, data that was false, that was not actually

true?

A I didn't say it was exactly false. I said --

my intention was to show that in metaphoric religious type

of language, one cannot simply try to slice up the pie and

say, "This is literal." But the facts are imbedded within

the context of a whole expression of the religious commitment.

Q I see. So we don't know what hagiography

means false or not false. It is just kind of a hodge-podge

4112

of something? Is that basically what you are telling us?

A I said that the facts were imbedded in terms

of this highly colorful language.

Q Do you know what "data" means to a Scientologist,

the word "data"?

A I have heard Scientologists use the term

"data."

Q What does it mean to a Scientologist? In

Scientology scripture, what is data?

A I would not be able to give you a definition

of what data means exactly.

Q Have you ever heard the phrase, "Truth is the

exact place, time, form and event"?

A I have not heard that phrase exactly the way

you said it.

Q Well, have you heard of any phrase like that

in Scientology scripture?

A No I haven't.

Q Now, let me just ask you if you have seen among

the GO documents you requested, have you seen anything like

that?

MR. LITT: Objection, Your Honor. He's already

stated he didn't request any.

THE COURT: I will sustain the objection. I don't

recall specifically that he asked for GO documents or

there is any evidence of that. You can ask him whether that

is something that he was shown.

4113

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Let me ask you, sir, whether

or not you got a document that said, ". . . to restrain,

remove Mr. Jones' employee in local government agency

attacking the organization"; did you see any document

like that?

MR. LITT: Your Honor, this document has not been

introduced before. It is improper. He should simply

ask of the witness whether he is familiar with the

document. And also, it has not been authenticated in

some other form.

THE COURT: He can ask the witness whether he has

seen it or observed it. If he has, he can say so. If

he hasn't, that is that.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Have you seen that language

in a document?

A I have not seen -- I haven't heard about this

document. I don't recognize what you are putting before

me.

Q Have you seen a document that says something

like, "Call up Jones' boss and accuse Jones of being

a homosexual"?

A No. I haven't seen that.

Q Or "Send Jones' boss evidence of Jones

accepting bribes on his job with copies to the police"?

MR. LITT: This is improper, Your Honor. I object.

THE COURT: I'll overrule the objection.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: You haven't seen anything like

that?

4114

A No.

Q Did you know there were about 80,000 of these

that were seized from the church that you are testifying

about?

MR. LITT: I object. That assures facts not in

evidence.

THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection.

We'll take a 15-minute recess.

(Recess.)

THE COURT: All right. In the case on trial,

let the record reflect that counsel are present; the

witness has retaken the stand.

Please, state your name again for the record,

sir. You are still under oath.

THE WITNESS: My name is Frank K. Flinn.

THE COURT: You may continue, Mr. Flynn.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Mr. Flinn, who retained you

to testify in this case?

A Mr. Litt did.

Q And you are being paid for your testimony;

is that correct?

A Yes. I am.

Q How often have you been retained by the

Church of Scientology?

A Twice.

Q To testify?

A Yes.

Q How often have you been consulted?

4115

A By whom?

Q By the Church of Scientology.

A I have talked with many Scientoiogists on

various issues, but consulted for what?

Q For any purpose.

A Well, I tried to interview a lot of

Scientologists whenever I can.

Q How often have you been paid in connection

with any type of consultation?

A I have been paid -- I would say I haven't

added up the number of times, about four or five.

Q Are you on an on-going retainer?

A No, I am not.

Q What were those four or five times in

connection with?

A Depositions, the testimony, and for those

two kinds of reasons.

Q Well, have you ever been retained to testify,

for example -- strike that.

Have you been consulted in connection with

potential testimony on occasions other than the four or

five that you mentioned?

A About potential testimony?

Q Where you didn't actually testify, but you

were consulted about the possibility of testifying.

A I don't recall that occurring.

I have been asked whether I would testify in

certain instances, in which cases I did.

4116

Q What about in connection with any type of

legislative proceedings?

A I have appeared before legislators, but not

at the instigation of the Church of Scientology.

Q On behalf of the Moon Organization?

A No, I have not done it on behalf of the Moon

Organization either.

Q The Hare Krishnas?

A No.

Q Now these four or five times, what is

the total amount you have been paid?

A I have not added it up, but it is not -- the

total is not over $10,000 to the best of my recollection.

Q Close to $10,000?

A Somewhere around there.

Q As a religious expert?

A Yes.

Q Now did you testify in the Christofferson

case?

A No, I did not.

Q What cases have you testified in?

A So far I have testified in the case, the IRS

case against the Church of Scientology.

Q Now, is the Church of Scientology paying you

in connection with your testimony here today or is Mary

Sue Hubbard?

A All checks I have received from the Church

of Scientology, and in some instances they have come from the

4117

legal firm.

Q Now, are you familiar with any Scientology

scripture relating to the interpretation of policy?

MR. LITT: Objection; vague.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Have you read in connection

with his study of Scientology scripture a policy that

states that there is no interpretation of policy. It is to

be literally followed?

A I have not read the statement that policy,

to quote your phrase, "Have I read something saying that

policy is to be literally followed?" No. I have not read

that phrase.

Q Have you read something similar thereto?

A Scientologists refer to applying tech standardly

or using the standard, referring to the tech.

THE COURT: T-e-c-h?

THE WITNESS: Applying the tech, t-e-c h.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Have you read a policy that

says that all policies cannot be interpreted but must be

adhered to in the language that in them?

MR. LITT: Objection. Your Honor, if there is a

document that Mr. Flynn is referring to, perhaps it could

be placed in front of the witness and he could be asked

whether he's read it.

MR. FLYNN: We know such a policy exists. We

are trying to find it. We are not sure we have it here in

the courtroom, but we are looking for it.

4118

Q Have you read a policy similar to that, Mr. Flynn?

A In my interview and in my reading, all

Scientologists refer to applying, using the standard tech,

and that is always referring back to the original writings.

THE COURT: Well that really wasn't what he said,

getting away from the use of the language of the tech.

You want to read that question back?

(Record read.)

4119

MR. FLYNN: Maybe I can rephrase it and save time.

THE REPORTER: I have it,

(The question was read.)

THE WITNESS: Yes. I have read statements to that

effect.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Now, you testified that you were

familiar with the cancellation of Fair Game Doctrine?

A I have read a policy letter that referred to the

cancellation of the Fair Game Doctrine.

Q What did that say?

A It simply canceled Fair Game.

Q Did it say that this does not cancel any policy

letter or PL with regard to the treatment of a SP?

A Yes. That language was included.

Q Did you interpret that?

A Did I interpret that?

Q Right.

A I saw that as part of the evolution of the Fair

Game Doctrine.

Q Evolution? Is that your word?

A I saw that -- yes. I saw that in the context

of the evolution of the Fair Game teaching which had undergone

modification and cancellation; in this case, modification.

Q Do you know what word clearing" is in

Scientology?

A Yes.

Q What is it?

4120

A It means trying to check the standard dictionary

definition of what words mean.

Q So that you can arrive at the exact definition

of words; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q Now, when you were talking about an autobiography,

did I understand your testimony as being embellishments that

increase over a period of time about someone who is a founder

of a religion?

A There are embellishments that occur in the very

beginning.

Religious leaders are always perceived by

different groups within the religious movement from different

perspectives.

The four gospels in the New Testament represent

four different reactions to Jesus, to the experience of Jesus

by different groups within Christianity.

Q Can you tell me, does hagiography have

characteristics toward increasing or decreasing the truth

about a founder?

A In terms of what is the experience as faith by

the community of believers, yes; they would say that; an

outsider might say this is amplification, coloration, of

fact.

Q That it increases; is that your answer?

A In terms of the faith of the believer.

MR. LITT: Objection. what is the "it"?

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Let's see if we can get a

4121

definition of hagiography. I'm still unclear.

Is hagiography something that is false?

A To the believer, no, not at all.

Q Do you distinguish between something that can

be scientifically validated and something that is a matter

of faith or belief?

A If you mean by scientific validation, the

application of empirical analytical analysis through

experiments, yes. I believe you can make those kinds of

distinctions.

Q So with regard to empirical analytical analysis

of a particular fact, you can arrive at a conclusion of

whether a fact is a fact; is that true?

A In terms of historical analysis, all historians

recognize it is pretty hard to get to the original cores of

fact.

Q Can you answer my question yes or no?

Can we find out whether or not the courtroom is

brown?

A By common sense, yes, the courtroom is brown.

Q Now, let's suppose -- you have various degrees;

do you not?

A Yes.

Q And you have studied a great deal?

A Hopefully, yes.

Q And you are appearing here as an expert; is that

correct?

A Hopefully, yes.

4122

Q And your expertise is predicated upon your study

and your experience over the last number of years; is that

basically true?

A Yes.

Q And you are in effect holding yourself out as

an expert because of your accumulated study and experiences;

is that correct?

A Yes.

Q And you went through a list of your qualifications

in which you listed at length your academic credentials; is

that correct?

A Yes.

Q And your academic credentials are a very important

part of your ability to hold yourself out as an expert; is

that correct?

A Yes, it is.

Q And I am sure you pride yourself in having

graduated, for example, magna cum laude; is that correct?

A Yes.

4123

Q And you were first in your class?

A Yes I was.

Q And you have used your educational experience

and background as a basis to, for example, be made an expert

in this courtroom; is that basically correct?

A Yes.

Q And you have used that academic experience

and background as the basis, for example, to command almost

$10,000 in expert fees in the Church of Scientology?

A Yes, I guess so.

Q Now, how do we know whether or not you were

lying to us about having graduated from Harvard?

MR. LITT: Objection; calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Well I suppose it does call for speculation.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Well, Mr. Flinn did you

bring your degree with you?

A No, I don't have my diploma with me.

THE COURT: Where is your place of business?

THE WITNESS: I reside in St. Louis.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Now, for all we know, you could

have just got off the train from being a surfer for the last

20 years; correct?

MR. LITT: Objection.

THE COURT: Well, it is metaphorical.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Isn't that basically true?

Have you ever met Judge Breckenridge?

A No, I have not before.

Q And you have never met me; right?

4124

A No, I haven't met you before.

Q And you have told us about your qualifications;

correct?

A Yes.

Q Have you told Mr. Litt about your qualifications?

A Yes.

Q Did you show him your degrees?

A I sent him my curriculum vitae.

Q But did you send him a certified copy of one

of your degrees?

A No, I did not.

Q So, Mr. Litt relied on what you told him in

your curriculum vitae?

A Yes.

Q And we have relied on what you have told us

about your qualifications without even seeing your curriculum

vitae; correct?

A I don't know whether you have seen my

curriculum vitae.

Q Have you used any hagiography in connection

with giving us your credentials?

A No, I have not. To the best of my knowledge,

I have not. I got my degrees when I got my degrees, and

they are the kind of degrees I got.

Q So that type of a thing is something that we

can precisely determine as to whether you did it or you

didn't do it?

A Yes, it could be determined that I was at

4125

Harvard University at one time and I was at the University

of St. Michael's College in Toronto at one time. That can

be determined.

Q And you are expecting us to rely on these

academic credientials in connection with your expertise

as an expert witneses correct?

A Yes.

Q In this subject of hagiography about

religious leaders, do academic credentials in your experience

play any role?

A In general in the past whether a religious

leader had academic credentials?

Q Right.

A Not in general in the past, although certain

religious leaders in our times tried to seek things like

Doctors of Divinity in rather unknown schools.

Q Well, a Doctor of Divinity is a very prestigious

title; is it not?

A Not necessarily.

Q Well, it does connote a certain degree of

educational achievement in theological study?

A In theological studies. In academic circles

a Ph.D. holds greater weight than a Doctor of Divinity.

THE COURT: Are some of these -- I am not

suggesting yours -- are some honorary degrees? There

is such a thing as honorary degree of Doctor of Divinity?

THE WITNESS: There are honorary degrees of all kinds.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Well, with regard to, for example

4126

in your business, earning income, getting money, your

academic credentials play a very significant roles don't

they, Mr. Flinn?

A Yes.

Q Now, have you studied the life of L. Ron Hubbard?

A I have studied -- I have seen various data

in folders about the life of Ron Hubbard - - L. Ron Hubbard.

I have not gone intensively and tried to verify everything,

all the facts about his life at all.

Q What does the word "science" mean to you?

A The word science to me means the application

of empirical analytical analysis under conditions of

experiment.

Q Something that can be observed, seen, touched,

tasted?

A Observed, tested, retested, validated, verified,

checked.

Q Now, do you know --

A But it is - - one has to be careful here

because this is a modern definition of science which arose

after the time of Francis Bacon.

THE COURT: We are not going back before Bacon's

time.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Let's deal with right here

now and common sense definitions.

A The word science, one must be very careful

about the application of the word science because natural

sciences do not see theology as a science. Theologians

4127

will call theology as a form of science known as a divine

science or religious science, and natural scientists may

object to the use of the word science.

It really depends on what context you are

using the word in.

Q Obviously a man of your education and credentials

knows a lot more about the broad parameters of science than

an 18 or 19-year-old person walking down the street?

A I would assume so.

Q Who could be proselytized into a particular

science; isn't that correct?

A I would assume so.

Q Now, is faith and belief necessary to have

religion?

A It is a necessary part of religion, yes.

Q And without faith or belief, can you have religion?

A No, I don't think so.

Q Are you aware that for the last 20 years

Scientology has been uniformly sold on the street on the

premise that it has nothing to do with faith or belief?

4128

A I am not aware of that, about Scientology being

sold that way.

MR. LITT: I move to strike. That assumes a fact not

in evidence. There has been no testimony concerning that

fact.

MR. FLYNN: I believe Mr. Armstrong testified to that.

MR. LITT: I don't think that is right, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I'll let the answer stand. He is not aware

of it.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Now, when you were doing your

research and interviewing these people --

A Yes.

Q -- did any of these people tell you anything about

the fact that when they were introduced to Scientology they

were told that it was only used a religion as a cover for

tax purposes?

A No. That didn't -- that didn't come up in the

interview.

My interviews, when I asked people how did they

get involved in Scientology --

Q The answer is no, Mr. Flinn; no one told you that,

is that correct?

A No one told me that this was being used as a

cover, no.

Q Did they tell you it was used for tax purposes?

A No, they did not.

Q Have you heard of a policy called "The Minister's

Mock-up"; was that one shown to you?

4129

A I haven't seen that particular policy letter.

Q How about the "Religious Image Check Sheet"; have

you seen that one?

A No, I haven't seen that one.

Q Do you know of any Scientologists who have been

on the Minister's mock-up and the religious image check

sheet?

MR. LITT: Objection; assumes facts not in evidence.

THE COURT: Well, if he didn't know of the document,

I don't know how he could know. It is argumentative in that

sense.

The objection is sustained.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Just assume for the purposes of

this question that Scientology has been sold on the street

to at least one person on the premise that it had nothing

to do with faith or belief, but was a composite of scientific

axioms: would you then conclude to that person that it was

not a religion if he believed that he was told --

MR. LITT: Objection. Calls for speculation. If he

is to interpret the mind of that person --

THE COURT: Overruled.

THE WITNESS: Would I assume that that person that --

should I assume that this is not a faith to them?

Q BY MR. FLYNN: The facts are this simple: the

person is told that Scientology has nothing to do with faith

or belief; it is a science. And it is not a religion. And

he believes that and he relies on it; to that person isn't

it true to say that Scientology is not a religion?

4130

MR. LITT: I'll still object. It calls for a

conclusion.

THE COURT: The witness is an expert. He has given

opinions about what constitutes a religion and what doesn't.

If he can answer, he should answer; if he can't,

he can so state.

THE WITNESS: I don't know. A person in that kind --

I don't know if I can answer a yes or no to that question.

If I could assume that this person did know a

distinction between faith and knowledge, then I could begin

to assume that then I could begin to answer that question.

But I can't begin to answer the question.

You have to hypothesize that this person does

know some kind of distinction between faith and knowledge.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Let's assume a little further;

let's assume that he knows that science is something that

he can concretely see; common sense; he doesn't have to

believe anything abstract. He does not have to have faith

in a religious sense. A regular 18 or 19 year old person

in our society and he thinks he is joining a science, not

a religion.

My question is very simple: To that person isn't

it fair to say that he would not think he was joining a

religion?

A That person may be deceived about the distinction

between faith and science or faith and knowledge.

Q Who would be deceiving him?

A He himself would not know the distinction; so

4131

he wouldn't be able to make that judgment.

Q And you wouldn't be able to assume that he could

make the judgment?

A That person for that one individual, that may

be science -- I, as a scholar looking from the outside,

that I regard certain people who have faith in science, there

are scientifically colored religions of which Scientology

is not alone. You have got Christian Science --

THE COURT: We'll never get you out of here this

afternoon if you go on. Just try to answer the question and

maybe we'll get through.

THE WITNESS: To the Christian Scientist, the word

science is a question of faith and not of, quote, empirical

analytical analysis with experimental --

Q BY MR. FLYNN: We're not trying to get your

five years of study on faith and science. What we are trying

to get from you is an assumption about an 18 or 19 year old

person who sees the simple distinction between religion and

science of the type you asked me about where I asked you to

make that assumption.

A It just isn't fair to say to that person that

that is not a religion. It may not begin to be perceived

as a religion by that person.

4132

Q Have you read "Scientology 8-8008"?

A Yes, I have.

Q "Scientology is the science of knowing how to

know"; do you recall that?

A Yes, I do.

Q "Scientology is the science of knowing science";

do you recall that?

A Yes.

Q "It seeks to embrace the science in humanity

as a clarification of knowledge itself"; do you recall that?

A Yes.

Q "One studies to know a science"; do you recall

that?

A Yes.

Q Now this book is kind of the Bible of many

Scientologists; isn't it?

A Well, no. That is not necessarily the Bible

to many Scientologists.

Q Now --

A The whole tech, included tech is what

Scientologists consider their scripture.

Q How many Ph.D's have you encountered in the

Church of Scientology?

A I have encountered four or five.

Q And how many people have you encountered who

only have a high school education, for example?

A Not very many of those.

Q How many have you encountered who dropped out

4133

of college in their first year?

A I encountered quite a few people who had

up to the junior level in colleges some who did drop out.

Q Do you know between the years 1970 and 1980

what the average of a Commodore's staff messenger Org

member was?

A Do I know?

Q Right.

A No, I do not know.

Q The people who were working immediately around

L. Ron Hubbard during that period, you do not know?

A No, I don't know the average age.

Q Who is the present pope, as you put it, of the

Church of Scientology?

A There has been a recent reorganization of

the church, and I have seen some information on it, but I

don't know who is functioning in an executive position. I

know this that L. Ron Hubbard, so long as he lives, will

retain the role of founder.

Q So you don't know who the current pope is?

A I don't know.

MR. LITT: Objections there is no post of "pope"

within Scientology.

THE COURT: Well, again it is metaphorical, but he's

testified there is a heirarchical position.

Who is the number one, top dog?

MR. LITT: Are we talking ecliasticaily?

THE COURT: Who runs the church?

4134

MR. LITT: Well, that question is vague and ambiguous.

THE COURT: All right. If it is still ambiguous

that you don't understand it, Mr. Litt, then I certainly

don't know what it is.

MR. LITT: I understand it, Your Honor, but I meant

that there must be a distinction made between corporate and

eclesiastical. If the question is who is the highest

eclasiastical authority, perhaps Mr. Flinn could answer

that.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Mr. Flinn, do you recall your

testimony about the heirarchical structure of the

Church of Scientology?

A Yes.

Q And you studied the heirarchical structure?

A Yes, quite thoroughly.

Q And you have given the court opinions about

the heirarchical structure; correct?

A Yes.

Q And you have concluded it is heirarchical

just like the Catholic church?

A It is very similar to the Catholic church.

Q Well isn't that quote the paradigm example?

A Yes, it is, the paradigm example of heir-

archical religions.

Q Of which Scientology is very similar?

A It is in many ways very similar but not in

all ways.

Q Now, under canon law if the Pope resigns of

4135

the Catholic church, can he take all the church funds and

put them into his personal bank account, if you know?

A No he cannot.

Q Now, are you familiar with the Society of

Jesus?

A Yes, I am.

Q Jesuits?

A The Society of Jesus and Jesuits are the same

thing, yes.

Q A structure directly similar in its own

structure to the Catholic church?

A It is part of the Catholic church, correct.

It is part of the Catholic church, but it is a society,

a religious society, and it is not totally identical with

the heirarchical structure.

Q It is a heirarchical structure?

A There are lines of authority but you have no

bishops within the order, the society of Jesus.

Q Well, you have a leader, however, who is

viewed almost like the Pope is viewed within the Society;

isn't that basically fair to say?

A Within the society he is metaphorically

referred to as the black Pope.

Q Have you ever studied the Navy?

A The U.S. Navy?

Q The U.S. Navy.

A No, I haven't thoroughly studied the U.S.

Navy.

4136

Q Do you know whether that is heirarchical?

A Most military, secular military things to

my common -- to my common observations tend to be very

hierarchical.

Q Just like the Catholic church and the Church

of Scientology?

A Yes, kind of.

4137

Q And how about the Communist Party; have you

studied them at all?

A The Communist Party tends to be -- I would not

use the word "hierarchical" in regard to them. I would use

the word "authoritarian."

Q Well, is the Pope authoritarian?

A The Pope exercises authority.

To exercise authority is not the same thing as

being authoritarian.

THE COURT: Under your definition of religion is

Communism a religion?

THE WITNESS: No.

THE COURT: How would you distinguish?

THE WITNESS: Communism does not believe in any

ultimate reality beyond this material existence.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: The exact place, time, form, and

event?

A Is that a question?

Q Now, Mr. -- do you know what the Schutstaffel

is?

THE COURT: What was that?

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Schutstaffel,

S-c-h-u-t-s-t-a-f-f-e-1, Schutstaffel.

A I am unfamiliar with that.

Q Have you ever heard of the SS?

A I have heard of the SS, yes.

Q Have you ever studied the SS?

A No, I have not studied the SS.

4138

Q When you studied the origins of Scientology did

you read a book "The Nazis and the Occult"?

A No. I haven't read that book.

Q Do you know where Scientology has its origins?

A I think the origins of Scientology are contained

generally in what Scientologists call their scriptures.

Q Do you know where Mr. Hubbard got his scriptures?

A He claims to have gotten them from his own

research.

Q He claims that. Is that hard data that you rely

on?

A I observe that this is the claim by him. And

it is the claim of the members of Scientology.

Q Have you done any research, for example, into

a paper written called "Scientologie," spelled with a g-i-e

on the end of it in Germany in 1936 or so?

MR. LITT: Objection; assumes a fact not in evidence.

THE COURT: Overruled.

THE WITNESS: I have not seen this document in

Germany.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Are you familiar with a Germanic

cult from the turn of the century called "The Germanen

Orden"?

A I have read about them, but I have done no in

depth study of that kind of cult.

Q Do you know whether Rudolph Hess was the head

of the Germanen Orden between 1922 and 1926?

MR. LITT: This seems rather far afield, Your Honor.

4139

THE COURT: Any time you put an expert on the stand,

there is almost no limit.

Overruled.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Do you know that Rudolph Hess was

in prison with Adolf Hitler?

MR. LITT: Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence.

MR. FLYNN: I'm trying to get a little of his background,

Your Honor.

THE COURT: I'll overrule the objection.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Do you know that, Mr. Flinn?

A No, I do not. This -- you are talking about --

I am an expert in religious studies, not in Nazi regimes.

Q That is where we are going to get to very

quickly.

So you don't know that the basis of "Mein Kampf,"

the book written by Adolf Hitler came from Germanen Orden

origins?

A No.

Q You must have studied "The Black Knights of the

Middle Ages"?

A I have read things about the so-called Black Knights of the

Middle Ages.

There is much legend with regard to the Black

Knights.

Q Then there came in 1902 the Germanen Orden?

A I don't know that that is a fact.

Q Then the Germanen Orden became the SS?

MR. LITT: Objection, Your Honor.

4140

THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Have you studied the Society of

Jesus?

A I have a fair familiarity with the Society of

Jesus.

Q Are you aware of the fact that the SS was built

on the same structure as the Society of Jesus?

A I have heard that. I have heard this by

hearsay.

Q You have done no studying about the fact,

that --

A I have not pursued that kind of study.

Q -- that Hitler built the Nazi Party based on

the Catholic Church, structurally?

MR. LITT: Your Honor --

Q BY MR. FLYNN: -- structurally you haven't

heard anything about the hierarchical structure of the

Catholic Church vis-a-vis the Nazi Party?

MR. LITT: Your Honor, this is a little much.

THE COURT: I don't know. I am not assuming anything

Mr. Flynn says is a fact.

He is permitted to ask a question. If it is

denied or if he doesn't know anything about it, that is the

end of it.

THE WITNESS: I don't know anything about these kinds

of comparisons.

BY MR. FLYNN: But you had heard about the SS

being built on the same structure as the Society of Jesus;

4141

you had heard that, Mr. Flinn?

A Well, I have heard member of the Jesuit Order

who have talked about this farfetched theory.

4142

Q Far-fetched?

A to the Jesuits it is perceived as a way of

denigrating the Jesuit Order.

Q Have you studied anything about the parallel

structures of the two, the SS and the Jesuits?

A No I have not.

I said that earlier.

Q Have you ever heard of this book?

A I have seen that book advertised. I have not

read it.

Q Have you ever heard of an operation connected

by the Guardian's office called Operation Hydra?

MR. LITT: Objection; assumes facts not in evidence.

THE COURT: Well, overruled.

THE WITNESS: No, I have not.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: When you were doing your

research about the structure of the Church of Scientology

and the fair game doctrine, did you make any effort to find

out whether or not Scientologists had gone throughout the

world and stolen copies of the book "Gods and Beasts"?

MR. LITT: Objection; assumes facts not in

evidence.

THE COURT: Well I will sustain the objection to the

form of the question.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Well, do you know anything

about operations of the Church of Scientology to steal en

theta material?

A No I do not.

4143

Q Do you know what "en theta" means?

A En theta means -- my perception is that

means material that is unfavorable to Scientology.

Q Now, the word "cheat" that is in the fair game

doctrine, can that mean steal in a common sense way?

A In the fair game -- are you referring to this

piece of paper you put in front of me?

Q Right.

Q I don't see the statement. In my mind, and

I tried to say this earlier, that this statement simply

says that if things are done against people who are still

members of the church that nothing will be done against him

in terms of Scientology. It means the person is not protected

by the rules of Scientology nor will this be processed within

Scientology.

That can be taken to mean that this will be

turned over to the civil courts to handle, that kind of

activity.

Q I undestand your view of it, but when it

says, "may be deprived of property," does that mean if

Dustry Sklar, for example, the author of this hook is

an enemy of the church, she could be deprived of property?

A This could be -- you would have to tell me

whether your understanding of this statement refers to

Scientology -- their property within the Church of

Scientology or not.

Q Assume that Dusky Sklar is not a Scientologist

and her property she was deprived of by having it stolen

4144

all over the United States.

A No, I don't assume it would be applied in

this way at all.

Q Let's just assume that that did take place;

do you think the civil courts should have sanctions against

the people who followed that policy in doing it?

MR. LITT: Objection; calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Well I think it is outside the scope. It

is a legal matter. Whether he thinks or doesn't think is

immaterial.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Well, let me ask you this,

Mr. Flynn: As a religious expert, if someone literally

adhered to that metaphorical language in the fair game

doctrine and stole someone else's property, pursuant to

that policy, as a religious expert, do you thin

the civil courts should have a sanction against that person?

MR. LITT: Same objection, Your Honor. It is the same

question.

THE COURT: Well, I will overrule the objection.

THE WITNESS: If someone commits a civil crime, in

my mind one is always subject to being prosecuted for a civil

crime, period.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Incidentally, who copyrighted

that policy?

MR. LITT: Objection. The document speaks for

itself. The question has already been asked in the course

of this proceeding about 10 or 15 times.

THE COURT: Yes, I think so. That is exhibit RR;

4145

MR. LITT: Yes, Your Honor.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Now, did you tesitfy that you

arrived at the opinion that the life and background of

the founder, L. Ron Hubbard, to adherents to Scientology

was really not all that important?

A To my interviewees certain aspects of his life

were important and other aspects were not important.

Q Well, what about his image; do you think his

image is important?

A I think it is very important to the members of

the church.

Q Do you think his image is in part predicated,

for example, his academic credentials, if he made them a

factor?

A No, that did not show up in my interviews.

Q The question is a hypothetical question. If

L. Ron Hubbard made his academic credentials an issue and

people relied upon them, do you think that relates to

L. Ron Hubbard's image?

MR. LITT: Objection; calls for speculation, Your

Honor.

THE COURT: Well, it is a question of definition and

he has given a lot of testimony concerning definition.

Overruled.

THE WITNESS: That might a factor, but not the total

factor.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Now, when you were studying the

background of L. Ron Hubbard, did you find that his research

4146

was important, L. Ron Hubbard's research?

A To L. Ron Hubbard the word "research" and

his own research is very important, yes.

Q Now, when you were studying the issue of

hagiography, did the issue arise as to whether the

hagiographical material came from the person himself?

A Did all of this hagiographical material

come -- did I determine that?

Q Was that an important factor in your studies?

A I determined various sources of hagiographical

material.

Q Well, to your knowledge did Jesus of Narazeth

4147

MR. LITT: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: It is a little bit too metaphorical,

counsel. I don't think the Romans had a trademark.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Do you know whether L. Ron Hubbard

has copyrighted structurally everything that he has written

that has been published?

A Yes. I am aware of that.

Q Including his biographical sketches?

A Yes. I am aware of that. The ones that I have

seen that are by L. Ron Hubbard, yes.

Q You are basically talked about Hagiography in

terms of what people ascribe to the person; correct?

What about what the person says about himself;

Mr. Flinn, is that Hagiography, or lies?

A What a person says about himself? I assume if

it is untrue.

Q If it is untrue.

A If it is untrue, it is untrue by self-

definition.

Q Then it is not Hagiography; it is just a

falsehood?

A There are many quasi-falsehoods in

Hagiographies.

To outside believers the fact that Jesus rose

from the dead would be a lie. But to someone who is not a

believer --

Q Let's take your PhD from Harvard; if you said

you had one when you didn't, would that be Hagiography, or

4148

would that be a lie?

A That would be falsification of my credentials.

Q If L. Ron Hubbard said he was a Bachelor of

Science in engineering when he wasn't, would be that

Hagiography, or a lie?

A If L. Ron Hubbard said that, that would be a

lie.

Q And if L. Ron Hubbard said he was a war hero

when in fact he was not, would that be Hagiography, or a lie?

A That one is harder to determine.

Q If L. Ron Hubbard said that he was flown home

in the Secretary of the Navy's plane when he fact he wasn't,

would that be Hagiography, or a lie?

A If he flew home in the Secretary's plane, he

told the truth; if he did not and claimed he did, he would

be telling a lie.

Q Suppose he said he was hit with Japanese

machine gun fire in his kidneys when he in fact wasn't;

would that be Hagiography, or a lie?

MR. LITT: This is all rhetorical questioning. It is self-evident.

MR. FLYNN: Your Honor, Mr. Litt tried to build a record.

THE COURT: Well, we can have a little more of it.

But I think we ought to try to get the gentleman back to

St. Louis before the weekend; otherwise, he is going to be

stuck here over the weekend.

4149

Q BY MR. FLYNN: That would be a lie rather than

Hagiography, Mr. Flinn?

A What would be a lie rather than Hagiography,

going back to St. Louis?

Q The bullet in the kidneys.

A If he was hit in the kidneys and said he was,

that would be the truth. If he wasn't hit in the kidneys

and said he was, that would be a lie.

Q Suppose he suffered from some urinary

difficulties which he said related to machine gun bullets,

but in fact related to a disease that he contracted; would

that be Hagiography, or a lie?

A The same type of application to this answer would

apply in this case. If it happened and he claimed -- if

it happened and he claimed it happened, it would be the

truth. If it happened and he didn't claim it happened, it

would be false.

Q Did Mr. Litt show you any documents in this

case that listed three pages of misrepresentations that

L. Ron Hubbard has made?

A No.

MR. LITT: Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence,

that those are misrepresentations, which is far from being

established.

MR. FLYNN: I don't want to go through them all. We

have to get Mr. Flinn back to St. Louis.

MR. LITT: He said he didn't see the list.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Do you think religion has something

4150

to do with intention?

A You would have to define "intention" for me,

please.

Q Well, if you told someone you were a Catholic

when in fact you weren't, would you be a member of the

Catholic Church or not?

A Oh, I have known many members of the Catholic

Church who have lied and remained members of the Catholic

Church.

Q Let's get a little more subtle about intention.

A Telling a falsehood does not disqualify one from

membership in anything.

Q Let's get --

A It is a test of a person's failure to live up

to the religion, but it doesn't mean he is excluded

thereby.

Q Let me ask you this: If you don't intend to be

the founder of a religion and you don't perceive of yourself

as the founder of a religion does that have anything to do,

in your mind, with whether or not a religion has been

founded?

A In order to answer your question --

Q As opposed to a science?

A I would simply say that I don't think that Moses

intended to found a religion of Israel; in fact, Moses fled,

had an experience, and this led to the founding of the

Israelite -- the later Israelite kind of religion.

4151

Q So your answer is no?

A To a certain extent, a religious leader very

often --

Q Your answer is no, Mr. Flynn?

A It is not. They can fall into a religion.

Q It means you can have a religion when you

don't intend?

A You can have a religion -- you can have

a later experience where it becomes a religion. Religions

don't necessarily have to start from the very beginning.

They can develop.

MR. LITT: For the court's reference, there are

constitutional decisions saying that whether people intend

something to be a religion, if it is a religion, those

criteria apply regardless of what was intended. The case

is Malnak v. Yogi.

THE COURT: I don't think we need to get off or take

up the time of the witness on legal discussions now.

MR. FLYNN: And I'd cite the Ballard case.

THE COURT: Let's go on and ask some questions and get

some answer so the witness can go home.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Now, Mr. Flinn, belief has

something to do with intention; right?

A Belief? I would say -- all intentions are

belief, and belief and intention are included in one another.

They overlap.

Q And sincerity of belief had something to do with

faith?

4152

A I think so.

Q And faith and belief are the essential components

of religion?

THE COURT: I think he said faith or belief.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Faith or belief are essential

components of religion; is that true?

A Yes, they are important.

Q Suppose a person wrote that, "Selling courses

in some type of a mental healing was a problem in practical

business"; does that affect whether or not that person

is thinking he is starting a religion or not?

A No, it doesn't affect it whatsover.

Q And suppose he says, "I await your reaction

on the religion angle"; does that suggest to you any question

about whether the person was really believing he was

starting a religion as opposed to just using it for other

purposes?

A I don't know what you are quoting and I don't

know when it days from, and I don't know what the context is.

Could you bring that information? We scholars

are very, very careful about these things.

Q It is a letter to Helen O'Brien dated

April 10th from L. Ron Hubbard.

A April 10th when?

Q I believe it is '52 --'53, 1953.

So, if we can just narrow this, if a person

said, "I wait your reaction on the religion angle"; does

this just connote to you as a religious expert that he is

4153

kind of using relegion as opposed to sincerely believing

in it?

A No it doesn't whatsoever. In fact, my article --

Q Thank you.

A My article --

Q The answer was no?

MR. LITT: Your Honor, may he finish his answer?

THE COURT: All he has to say is yes or no.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Now, you have talked about

charismatic leaders and you put L. Ron Hubbard in that vein,

and you put Jesus and Mohammed.

Did you put Shankara in that domain?

A I don't know who Shankara is.

Q Well, didn't you say that Scientology was

technical Bhuddism?

A Technological Bhuddism. Are you referring to

a person or a method?

4154

Q Well, let me ask you this: Was Hitler, in your

view as a religious expert, a charismatic leader?

A He had certain charismatic qualities applied in

the political realm, but not a charismatic leader.

Q Was Jim Jones a charismatic leader?

A He had certain charismatic leadership qualities.

I don't know whether at the end of his life he was a

religious leader or not because he assumed certain political

doctrines.

Q Is Khadafi a charismatic leader?

A He has certain charismatic qualities,

Q Khomeni, is he a charismatic leader?

A Khomeni is charismatic.

THE COURT: How about Bogwon?

THE WITNESS: I would say he is a charismatic leader?

Q BY MR. FLYNN: Do you believe education disspells

mysticism?

A Not necessarily. No, I don't.

Q Do you believe that between the time of Jesus

and the present time, man has evolved more toward technoloical

studies rather than mystical belief?

A I have a much more sickening view of religious

phenomena; that at a time religion goes downhill and things

like technological study goes uphill and at times they

become -- they get, disillusioned and religion goes back

uphill.

Q To your knowledge did Jesus of Nazareth maintain

Swiss bank accounts?

4155

A I have no knowledge of that whatsoever.

Q But you do agree that if the Pope had resigned,

he wouldn't have control over the monies of the Catholic

Church?

A In fact, there were Popes who did resign in the

Middle Ages during the Avion Papacies.

Q We are dealing with now.

A I --

MR. LITT: Can he finish, Your Honor?

THE COURT: I would like to get through with it. Can

he answer yes or no?

THE WITNESS: In present day, no, that would not

happen. In the past, that, in fact, did happen.

Q BY MR. FLYNN: In the past the Catholic Church

burned witches; correct?

A Yes.

Q This House of Paracletes down in New Mexico,

did you say it was primarily for medical treatment of

alcoholism?

A It was for all kinds of treatment dealing with

priests who have problems.

Q Including psychiatric treatment?

A There are some that I am aware of that had mental

problems, things like that, emotional problems, all kinds

of problems; principally dealing with priests who had alcohol

problems.

Q There were doctors down there treating them?

A No. It was a religious order that treated them.

4156

And doctors were employed in circumstances. But there was

no direct, to my knowledge -- well, there were doctors who

were brought in, but not members of the group who were doing

the care of these priests.

Q The intent was to treat the person's, for example,

alcoholism and if medical treatment was needed, it was

brought in?

A There would be medical treatment if necessary,

yes.

Q Now, have you ever been to a psychiatric

institution where a person is in a locked ward?

A Yes, I have. Yes.

Q So for purposes of treatment they put them in

a locked ward to protect themselves; is that correct?

A With doors locked and bars. Yes, I have seen

that.

Q Have you ever been to a prison where a person

is locked up by society so society protects itself?

A Yes.

Q Do you place a distinction between those three

items, the psychiatric institution, the prison, and the House

of Paracletes?

A Do I make a distinction?

Q Yes.

A I think there are distinctions between those,

yes.

Q Suppose a person is actually kidnapped and locked

against their will; do you make another distinction there?

4157

A I think that that -- I can't answer that question

without circumstances. If it is against their will and they

were kidnapped and force was used, that is false imprisonment

unless it is by a court order.

MR. FLYNN: That is all I have, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Litt.

4158

THE COURT: Mr. Litt?

MR. LITT: Thank you, Your Honor.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. LITT:

Q Mr. Flinn, is the word "science" frequently used

within certain religious movements?

A The most famous theological treatise in the

world is called the "Summa Theologicum" by St. Thomas

Aquinas and he begins this treatise discussing schienta

divina, divine science, and so that the word, you cannot

simply say that natural scientists have exclusive use of

the word science nor people who hold to a theory of knowledge

called common sensisn have a hold over the word science.

One must define the context in which the word science is

being used.

The Christian Scientists which is well

recognized by everyone to be a religious phenomenon discusses

its methodology as spiritual science within the context

of that safe community.

Q Now, Mr. Flynn asked you some questions about

the origins of Scientology.

Without elaborating, because we are short

of time, based on your study of the belief system of Scientology,

does it from what you can determine have roots in older

religions in many respects?

A I have actually written on this topic to the

effect that there are many parallels between the Scientological

4159

salvation process; that is, going from being a preclear

through auditing and become a clear and achieving a status

of being an operating Thetan is very, very closely allied

to and parallel in some aspects derived from the Bhuddist

notion of being entangled in the threads of existence, and

through a process of meditation of spiritual discipline

achieving what the Bhuddists called enlightenment or

nirvana.

Q Now, based upon your studies in a situation

where there is a living founder who holds no organizational

post, would you consider it characteristic that person's

views would continue to be followed irrespective of any

post that they held?

A This has occurred with the founders of many

of the religious orders within the Catholic tradition where

religious founders becane older, kind of retire.

this happened with any of the founders of

the religious movement in the United States that are kind

of indigenous, including Mary Baker Eddy herself is a very

good example of this.

4160

Many other types of religious movements where

the founder, in their old age, is well taken care of by

the membership in their retirement.

Q And would you consider the characteristic that

where there is a living founder who holds no formal

organizational post other than that title would nonetheless

be able to intervene at various times and affect the

direction or activities of the religion?

A In the history of religion, this type of

intervention into preserving the purity and integrity of

doctrine has occurred time after time after time by retired

founders.

MR. LITT: No further questions, Your Honor.

MR. FLYNN: Nothing further, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well. We'll take a recess until

9 o'clock.

You can go back to St. Louis, sir.

9 o'clock Monday morning.

(At 4:02 a.m., an adjournment was taken

until Monday, June 4th, l984; at 9:00 a.m.)

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